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PS and FT - the only sites where you can play FL?

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scarface_0001

08-18-2009, 07:44 PM Post subject: PS and FT - the only sites where you can play FL?

#1 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Aug 2009

Posts: 20

I've heard that the only sites that are good for playing FL are Pokerstars and Fulltilt because the rake on other sites is too high and the traffic is too low. Is this true? I am a NL player and usually I play on fishy sites, not on PS and FT.

I don't like PS and FT very much because the NL players are better than at other sites. How are the FL players from these 2 poker rooms? Are enough fish at these sites at small stakes ($1-$2, $2-4, $3-6)?

I suppose at stakes higher than $5-$10 there aren't other alternatives than Stars or FT.

If there was more traffic at other sites I don't think rake would be too important. Even if you would lose because of the bigger rake you will win more because of the fish. But the problem is that Fixed limit isn't very popular and the traffic is very low.

Since I'm a beginner at Limit I will start with micro games. What is the best site to play at $0.1/$0.2? I think it's Stars. There aren't many Fulltilt tables at $0.1/$0.2 and the VPIP isn't too high.

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KoRnholio

08-18-2009, 08:35 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

The rake at all sites is pretty much the same these days.

Smaller sites do suffer a lot from traffic issues, especially at full ring. 9-10 handed tables at 1/2 or higher are quite hard to find on sites without large amounts of traffic.

You can usually find quite a few shorthanded/6max games though, even on smaller sites.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

scarface_0001

08-18-2009, 08:42 PM

#3 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Aug 2009

Posts: 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

Smaller sites do suffer a lot from traffic issues, especially at full ring. 9-10 handed tables at 1/2 or higher are quite hard to find on sites without large amounts of traffic.

I forgot to mention. I only play 6max tables, so the small number of FR tables shouldn't be a problem.
And I don't play more than 4 SH tables.

KoRnholio

08-18-2009, 10:20 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

6max at limits 1/2 or less you shouldn't have any problem finding a few tables on most sites during peak hours. For 2/4 and up or at non-peak times is where you'll start to have more problems finding games.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

scarface_0001

08-18-2009, 10:32 PM

#5 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Aug 2009

Posts: 20

How many fish are at Stars or FT at 2/4 and up? I see Stars has the best traffic from all sites but I don't know how tough the games are.

I see that other sites with good traffic are Party and the ones from ipoker network. How are the Party and ipoker games compared to Stars and FT?

Chopper

08-19-2009, 01:06 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

scarface, there are fish everywhere.......assuming you are better.

absolute/ultimate bet offer LHE games. Cake/Doyles does, too. i think most sites will offer the games. stud and omaha get a little tougher to find.

however, cake has one of the sweetest rakeback deals out there, and that is why i play there most of the time now. plus, they dont allow PT/HEM or HUDs. so, you are on your own for "reads." therefore, i find the sites a bit fishier and generally looser.

as for NL players being tougher, i tend to disagree a bit. stars is FULL of fish. FTP was fairly tough as i remember, but its been over a year for me there. i ran an "experiment" in half stack open pushing and could hardly buy a caller at cake's 4NL tables. however, stars 2NL and 5NL players called with all sorts of crap.

that may be well below your NL levels, but it tells me that Cake will only be tighter the higher i go. stars is also far and away the traffic leader now; so, you can expect it to be a bit easier, imo, to find random fish. (when was the last time you saw Cake advertise during tv tourneys? not as often.)

choices are plenty still. 6max LHE players, at the micros, still really suck. so, dont worry too much about things. just jump in and take some nickels......or half dollars. and, welcome aboard.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

KoRnholio

08-20-2009, 10:51 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

The rake at all sites is pretty much the same these days.

Update to this. I recently started playing on the Merge network (ie, Carbon Poker) and their LHE rakes are different than many sites. Most LHE sites the comes in increments. At 2/4 it's $1 off the pot at $20, $2 at $40, $3 at $60.

On Carbon it's 5% rounded off to the nearest 5 cents no matter what the size of the pot (up to $3 at $60). This can add up to a very substantial amount in the long run.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

BennyLaRue

08-21-2009, 01:22 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2007

Posts: 646

BennyLaRue is a glorious beacon of light

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

The rake at all sites is pretty much the same these days.

That's not quite true, especially when comparing Euro and US rooms. As this chart illustrates, there are some significant differences when you get above 0.5/1.

http://www.marketrake.com/FLSH%20chart.htm

Playing 2/4, for example, there's an almost 2% difference between playing at Stars and Ongame.

Bear in mind that link has limited amount of info. I only intended to illustrate how different the rakes can be. To the OP, if you read a site's T&C you can figure this stuff out yourself.

Chopper

08-21-2009, 12:47 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

pretty cool graph. at first glance.....all about the same until 50c/1. then they start to split. 2/4 has a nice spread, but by 5/10 and 10/20, they have all come back together. and, the other thing i got from that.......stars is pretty freaking low across the limits. hmmmm, i wouldnt have thought so.

seems stars has the better model, and its no wonder they have all the traffic these days. clearly the leader in so many areas.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

scarface_0001

08-21-2009, 06:44 PM

#10 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Aug 2009

Posts: 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

however, cake has one of the sweetest rakeback deals out there, and that is why i play there most of the time now. plus, they dont allow PT/HEM or HUDs. so, you are on your own for "reads." therefore, i find the sites a bit fishier and generally looser.

I downloaded the soft, but there is very low traffic at the limit tables. It seems to me that only Stars, Fulltilt, Party and Ipoker have enough traffic at limit tables.
How are the NL games at Cake? Even at 4NL the flop seen % is very low.
I like though that they don't allow HUDs because I don't use HUDs. I make wrong decisions when I play with a HUD because I don't know how to interpret the numbers. I wish HUDs were prohibited at all poker sites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

as for NL players being tougher, i tend to disagree a bit. stars is FULL of fish. FTP was fairly tough as i remember, but its been over a year for me there. i ran an "experiment" in half stack open pushing and could hardly buy a caller at cake's 4NL tables. however, stars 2NL and 5NL players called with all sorts of crap.

Maybe you're right. I have only a play money account at Stars and never played there. Usually I play on Pacific and on Poker Heaven.
And when saying fish do you mean TAGfish or pure fish? And what limits? I'm sure at 2NL and 5NL there are a lot of fish but I suppose at 50NL or 100NL there are more pure fish on Pacific and PH than on Stars.

Chopper

08-21-2009, 09:04 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

1) traffic? NL Cake games?

my opinion is this: the traffic at cake isnt great. that's obvious once you see he lobby. however, it doesnt mean the players are phenomenal, either. also, the flop % USED TO BE a good indicator. but, not anymore. you need to seat select more than table select from a lobby alone. you are looking for a couple donkeys per table. if you find that, you have a great table no matter the flop%. long gone are the days of full ring games of 25NL+ carrying a 42% vpip. so, stop using that criteria and get more specific in WHO you are after at a particular table. Cake was also run by (maybe still is) Sportsbook......an online sportsbetting site. your action junkies can be found at those sites. hmmmm, 888/pacific also comes to mind. (damned frist again)

NL games are "ok." i actually find them tougher than stars because these clowns dont go past the flop without strong shit. there arent any payoff wizards there. they all try and trap and slowplay and call down their monsters. as a result, there isnt a lot of fireworks at their tables, unless....... you play a LAGgy style or short-stack them while mixing in a little blind stealing to encourage them to call you more often. again, just my opinion. but, that is what i LOATHE about the state of NL games these days. everyone has a starting hand chart, PT3, HUDs, and knows that TPTK isnt worth felting most times. the only way to get it all in together is set over set or some rivered flush when a guy was already committed. so, you arent playing "felt poker" anymore. its a war of who sizes their bets better and bets for thin value while avoiding traps. to me, that is gay at the micros. and, that is everywhere....not just cake. NL is not nearly as much fun as it used to be....it feels like a job. again, unless you play LAG or short.

2) fish? limits? yeah, i meant pure fish. there are plenty at stars playing 2NL and 5NL. i am finding 5NL tougher than 10NL used to be 2 years ago lately. the games are definitely drying up at the micro levels since US players cant get money on as easily as the neteller days. slowly but surely, the less than serious are going back to old hobbies or just running out of cash for the sites.

that said, stars is better than cake if you want to play some crazy shove-festing games. they will call lighter if you just open-shove your hand. and, they will call with some terrible crap. Q2s? seen it. 57o? seen it, too. AJ? all day long. AJ and AQ are the most common holdings i seem to notice calling an AI shove.

however, at cake, nope. they dont call as easily. they just give you the blind. you have to raise about 4-5X pre (and even that gets tons of folds) and size it right or use a c/r. and, even then, i see respectable hands.

if you cant tell, i like to short stack these days when playing NL. people will tell you it means "i am giving away my edge." i dont care, to be honest. i am enjoying poker. it wont ever be my living, and i am still about as profitable as i was several years ago. but, i have more fun getting money in the middle more often than waiting for a second best hand to get screwed.

i used to like the days when there wasnt much thinking. pick up KJ, hit the K on the flop and pot/pot/shove. get called by 88. game over. lather rinse repeat. and, earn a bonus along the way. but, those days are so far gone its only nostalgia now. however, i have sort of recreated those days by half-stacking at stars. 7X raise, pot, shove. done. mix in leading some draws, open-shoving some hands, blind steals, some limping, and you will have the whole table thinking you are a complete donkey. and, they wont be shy about telling you so. as long as my winrate is decently positive, i cant be too big a donkey.

could you win more by studying the game and playing a more theory-based game? yes. but, all i am saying is that I dont get off on that any more. it is more work than i care to put into my game. so, i turn the tables to bring the game back to me.

if you want to work your way up to 100NL, by all means, disregard everything i said....its pure crap.

LHE, on the other hand, is a little bit fishier game. players are terribad at the lower levels...and you pile up RB faster. players get "ok" at 50c/1 and 1/2, imo, but that is because i am not a great player. if you want advice beyond those levels, others here will have to jump in because i cant.

good luck. hope some of this helped.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

scarface_0001

08-22-2009, 09:40 PM

#12 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Aug 2009

Posts: 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

if you cant tell, i like to short stack these days when playing NL. people will tell you it means "i am giving away my edge." i dont care, to be honest. i am enjoying poker. it wont ever be my living, and i am still about as profitable as i was several years ago. but, i have more fun getting money in the middle more often than waiting for a second best hand to get screwed.

i used to like the days when there wasnt much thinking. pick up KJ, hit the K on the flop and pot/pot/shove. get called by 88. game over. lather rinse repeat. and, earn a bonus along the way. but, those days are so far gone its only nostalgia now. however, i have sort of recreated those days by half-stacking at stars. 7X raise, pot, shove. done. mix in leading some draws, open-shoving some hands, blind steals, some limping, and you will have the whole table thinking you are a complete donkey. and, they wont be shy about telling you so. as long as my winrate is decently positive, i cant be too big a donkey.

What a coincidence. I also play short stacked and I completely agree with this: "but, i have more fun getting money in the middle more often than waiting for a second best hand to get screwed."

I prefer the 30BB-40BB range because I think the decisions are easier than with a 50BB stack. It's easier to commit with a 30-40 stack than with a 50BB stack. If you cold-call a raise preflop and villain cbets, if you decide to raise his cbet you are all-in without overbetting the pot too much. If you are the aggressor and decide to double barrel, again, you're AI without overbetting the pot too much. With a 50BB stack most of the time you're still commited if you decide to raise his cbet or 2 barrel but you have to overbet the pot to go AI. With 35BB if you have TPTK or TPGK you will want to play for stacks against almost every opponent. With 50BB against some tight opponents the decision is trickier because there is still enough money behind. Sometimes the correct decision is to fold TPTK if he raises. And I also don't like the 20BB buy-in because I have to put my money in with too many weak hands and the variance is bigger than with a 35-40BB stack.

I know it's offtopic but can you speak more about open-shoving? What range do you open-shove? I don't think open-shoving is too good. If you open-shove a 50BB stack for stealing the blinds you risk a lot to win little and if you open-shove with strong hands I think you lose value. Many hands that would call if you had raised a smaller amount will now fold to the open-shove.

Chopper

08-22-2009, 11:49 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

- you shouldnt be cold calling many, if any, raises pf. fold or shove. 44? shove it, unless the raise is well under 10% of your stack (but to be honest, i am open folding 44 80% of the time. it just doesnt play well short). however, start watching the players that raise on steals and can find the fold button to your shove. shove the shit out of them. if they call, they call.

- at the 2NL and 5NL levels, the donks are so many that i dont see any difference in 50bb stacks as opposed to 40. the reason? if they call 3/4 pot bets, they call full pot bets. if they call 5x raises, they call 7x raises. if they call overshoves, they call bigger overshoves. i wont top up until under 40bb's, but i load up to 50, and play about the same until i double through. its fun with 75bbs to launch a 7X raise and pot the flop.....ooops, howd that pot get so big? wtf happened? i can hear them thinking that all the time. the mooks.

- open shoving? its simple. find the range you think they will call and pokerstove the ranges. if you pick it up, you shove it in. all you have to watch is the players that will minraise the goods or the raises in front of you. you cant very well shove over a tighter player that raised in front of you with your ATs. thats not gonna fly too far.

basically, JJ+, AQ+. and, mix in the occasional sc and hope you get caught. when you open shove the 78s hand and fold the table, SHOW IT! and, tighten back up.

i have, however, been as wide as 77+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQ, 78s-QJs. your variance goes straight through the roof, but you still show a bit of a profit when you can find those that raise and fold.

although, a fun balancing manuever is to over limp AK/AQ late and when the A flops, shove it in. all sorts of AX crap (that limped) will call you since they have to have your bluff beat....lol. that opens the door to set hunt in limped pots, too, because you will see a lot of free turn cards.

just fun to do this shit and get them steamed. if they start calling you a donkey.....that just means its working. this comes from over 40k hands (combined with a friend doing the same thing) of about an 8ptbb/100, while i 9 table and he 20-24 tables. my winrate suffers from my goofing around, which is why i keep it at 9 tables. he is "by the book" to this loosely-termed strategy and pretty much shoves or folds since he has so much going on. i goof around more and deservedly get called a donkey. but, if you cant make up for it elsewhere at a 5NL table, well, not much else can help you...lol. my winrate is far from "the best i can do." i just enjoy splashing chips with the best of it.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

scarface_0001

08-23-2009, 12:35 AM

#14 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Aug 2009

Posts: 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Sometimes it's better to cold-call instead of shoving. If I know villain likes to call my shove with small or medium pairs but he will fold weaker aces or kings, cold-calling with AK or KQ is fine. Also it's very easy to play after the flop. If you hit a TP you will win at least a cbet (the majority of players cbet 100%). And a raise+cbet is a big part of a 35BB stack. And usually KQ is too weak for a 3bet (it turns your hand into a bluff) and too good to fold. However medium pairs are not so easy to play postflop with and I prefer 3betting/shoving them.
Or when I think I can win more by trapping with AA or KK I will cold call instead of 3betting and let villain value town himself.

Even Sunny Mehta (the author of Proffesional NLH) says in the PNLH study group from 2+2 that trapping is good sometimes with a short stack: "Secondly, it sounds like you're asking "is it okay to flat call preflop with strong hands rather than reraise?" Of course it is. Particularly with a 50bb stack, this often works well with strong top pair hands. If your opponents will fold weaker portions of their range to a rr, and in addition, they'll keep firing at you postflop when you let them have initiative, why not trap more?"

And what's more important, the players from the sites I play are very weak and I don't need to balance. A few days ago, I had a bad beat and I raised 10XBB with my AA (because of tilt, usually I don't raise so big), a player called me. The flop was Kxx. I shoved ( I think I had ~ a 40BB stack). Villain called me. Guess what he had? QJ without any flush draw. Just Q high. The hand was played on Pacific on 50NL. The only thing I don't like about this site is the terrible soft (and the low traffic at the fixed limit tables). I can't play more than 4 tables. I think it has the worst soft from all poker rooms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

- at the 2NL and 5NL levels, the donks are so many that i dont see any difference in 50bb stacks as opposed to 40. the reason? if they call 3/4 pot bets, they call full pot bets. if they call 5x raises, they call 7x raises. if they call overshoves, they call bigger overshoves. i wont top up until under 40bb's, but i load up to 50, and play about the same until i double through. its fun with 75bbs to launch a 7X raise and pot the flop.....ooops, howd that pot get so big? wtf happened? i can hear them thinking that all the time. the mooks.

I think you're right. I will try to buy-in for more and see if my win-rate increases.

Chopper

08-23-2009, 02:24 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

good stuff. we can talk more down the road.

i often find myself "hanging myself" when i get a little too aggressive. usually, its trying to felt a "value" hand like TPTK against a passive. i will, however, mix it up like you with AA/KK, and the dominating aces. however, i dont play KQ much, but know i should. if i play it a bit more passively preflop, but aggressively on the flops i hit, i wonder if it wont show an increase in profitability.

and, youre right about balance....or the lack of. i only worry about balancing preflop and on the flop. i do it out of habit because i know better. however, lately, i have been very easy to read by anyone paying attention. my bluffing is at about 0% and i raise big when i want to get it in and i raise it small when i have a hand in the weaker part of my range. cbetting has just about disappeared since i get called a lot. so, i look for opportunities to play hands the way players are used to seeing them played. for instance, a paired board. i used to fire at these a lot and take down smaller pots. now, i figure if i actually hit trips, most players would think i would c/r. so, i do as a bluff and dont when i actually have it. when i hit trips, i lead out as if i was scared of the flop. seems to be working, but it wont be long before i change things around a little.....again.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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