|
Gatlin Dan
|
03-20-2005, 02:37 PM
Post subject: Preparing for jump...party .5/1 to 1/2
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
|
|
I have been playing .5/1 party and am almost bankrolled for a move up to 1/2. What things should I consider before moving up? Any suggestions on how to most smoothly make the transition. How does 1/2 compare in difficulty to .5/1 and what do I need to be more aware of?
Should I think about having 325-350 BB's before moving up instead of the 300 to allow for any necessary adjustments at this next level?
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
Sed
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
|
|
At 1/2 table selections starts to make a difference. At .5/1 anywhere you sat you could almost be guaranteed good action. Don't be afraid to leave a table after a couple circuits if they are playing too tight. That was the only real adjustment I had to make.
- sed
|
|
|
|
G_host
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 227
|
|
Well I had a table at 0.5/1 right now with everyone around 20% after 4 orbits so I guess it will soon start to be true about that level too 
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Play 2/4 instead.
|
|
|
|
Chicago_Kid
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Play 2/4 instead.
|
|
|
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
|
|
Gatlin Dan
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by sed
At 1/2 table selections starts to make a difference. At .5/1 anywhere you sat you could almost be guaranteed good action. Don't be afraid to leave a table after a couple circuits if they are playing too tight. That was the only real adjustment I had to make.
- sed
|
I already spend a great deal of time with table selection and finding the best games. I have recently been playing in the very early am hours and have found the tables significantly tighter at 5-9 am eastern time than at other times. This has helped me developed table selection skills somewhat. When I do move up, I will plan on playing more hands during the evening hours.
This is where I want to play but am not bankrolled for it. I want to spend as little time as necessary at 1/2 before moving to2/4.
You guys don't think it is necessary to have an extra 25-50 bb cushion when moving from .5/1 to 1/2? The caliber of players isn't that much better?
|
|
|
|
jmontis
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
|
|
I'd listen to fnord, a lot of times shitty players will jump limits trying to score some bit pots, and have no idea who they are playing.
Sit down in a $2-4 game if it looks good and people are playing loose, if you feel outclassed, leave, it's that simple.
|
|
|
|
Chicago_Kid
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
|
|
Make sure you are BR'ed. Thats for sure. 2/4 will take you up and down.
|
|
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
|
|
Gatlin Dan
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
|
|
Playing a limit I do not have have 300 bb's for is out of the question. I have moved up limits before being properly bankrolled in the past. I play scared and weak and my game sufferes. The last thing I want to do is play move up a limit when I'm not bankrolled for it. I may have the bankroll for 1/2, but if I move to 2/4 prematurely and hit a -150 bb downswing, I'm redepositing. I've put in too many hours building it up to jeopardize having to start over. It's better to be moving up a limit late, than starting all over should variance frown on me when I do move up. I think there are enough bonuses out there that I have not taken advantage of (I have no accounts on any party skins other than party itself), that done properly the amount of time I spend at 1/2 will likely be minimal.
|
|
|
|
Chicago_Kid
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
I've put in too many hours building it up to jeopardize having to start over.
|
I agree with you, Dan. You seem to take your poker seriously. I would make sure you have a good stash before going to 2/4.
Recently, I've gone on a major skid at 2/4...to the tune of -160 BB...and this losing streak has continued over several sessions...very frustrating. I've still got BR left, but not as much as I'd like.
So, it sounds like you know your game and how to play your best. GL!
|
|
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
|
|
Gatlin Dan
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
|
|
Thanks, I do take my game seriously and am trying to do everything I can to approach it in a way that will be as profitable as possible.
I started out like I imagine a lot of people do, playing above your BR. I was fortunate not to bust out before realizing the aggregious error I was making and took steps to correct it. Once I made the commitment to practice proper bankroll management, my game improved and I was able to not play weak/tight poker. Shortly thereafter, I experienced my first swing of > -150 BB. This is where I learned that limit poker can be incredibly streaky and really began to start thinking in terms of "the long run."
I started out with an initial deposit of fifty dollars on stars, lost half of it before discovering the necessity of bankroll management. With 25 dollars, I retreated to the .02/.04 limit table and grinded my way up. I've grinded it up to where I am almost ready to play 1/2 at party. It has taken an ungodly number of hands and hours to build up that 25 dollars to the level where it is currently, and playing on stars with no bonus offerings, it really did take a long time. Most people I don't imagine start at rock bottom like I did and work their way up through each and every limit. Anyone who has, kudos to you. The amount of patience and dicipline it takes is incredible and proving to be quite valuable as I progress. I have taken periodic cashouts along the way as well. In the last month I have taken out 250 for real life expenses, but still have left myself always a minimum of 300 BB's. It has taken me months of playing multiple hours every single day to get to the point where I am now. With the amount of time I've invested in building this roll from such a small initial deposit, it's easy to see why I want to take bankroll management and moving up very seriously.
This brings me back to one of my orginal questions...
Do anyone think it necessary to have more than the minimum 300 bb's when moving from .5/1 on party to 1/2?
If I had pokertracker stats, I'd post them to help guage the decision based on my play but have not yet purchased it. (The 250 dollars withdrawl I had to make kind of shot that all to hell). I will have that before I move to 1/2. Hoping to have it purchased within the week. Once I have it I will load in the .5/1 hands from February and March and post the stats for feedback.
|
|
|
|
Chicago_Kid
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
This brings me back to one of my orginal questions...
Do anyone think it necessary to have more than the minimum 300 bb's when moving from .5/1 on party to 1/2?
|
I think 300 BB is more than enough, as long as you are playing correctly. However, 300 BB is just like investment management rule of thumb--everyone has a different risk tolerance. And, very much like the investment instruments you chose, your BR requirements depend upon the variance of your game. Here is an article I found that might help:
http://www.thepokerforum.com/angel1.htm
On this site is a formula to determine a BR to obtain an x% likelihood of NOT going broke. However, keep in mind this formula assumes a CONSTANT winrate, and SD. Starting at a new level will mean a fluctuating WR while you adjust. Therefore, you must assume something like "ok, I make 2.3BB/100 at .5/1, so I'll conservatively assume 1.5 BB/100 for the calculation at 1/2." Obviously, you can't have a formula tell you how long it will take for you to adjust to a certain level and start (if ever) making a profit!
I think it gives some standard assumption for SD like 10x WR, which can greatly affect the formula's result. So a monte carlo-esque approach (as in the article) would be wise.
BTW--I'm not a statistician by any means, but check it out...posting your results would be interesting to see as well.
|
|
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
|
|
Chicago_Kid
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
|
|
Yeah--I'm dbl posting, but I just did mine cause I can't sleep:
Acceptable probability of going broke: 5%
SD per 100 hands: 14BB/100 (over 15k hands)
Assumed constant WR: 1.5 BB/100
Required BR to avoid bust 95% of time: 340 BB
Not sure if anyone else has worked with this formula before, or has thoughts on it, but this is what I used...
|
|
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
|
|
Gatlin Dan
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
|
|
That article is interesting, complicated for someone who has never figured variance, but interesting nonetheless. According to that, I'm going to want more than 300 BB to play since never going broke is of utmost priority. That is also considering that you are playing for a living and playing at a high enough limit that most other people are also good enough to play for a living. Playing against average competition at party is far less than this, so would bring that estimate down somewhat I would imagine. I think as long as you are finding games with some fish, 300 bb bankroll would be enough to play with relative certainty that you won't go broke. I pretty much got from this article without crunching numbers, that if in doubt, have slightly more than 300 bb's.
The imaginary mathematician bit cracked me up. I'm not good enough at math to be a statistician, but I am good enough at it, that I don't have to play NL. *ducks bricks being thrown by NL players
Good thing my fiance's mom is a math teacher.
|
|
|
|
Chicago_Kid
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
|
|
Yeah, this is where PT is helpful..provides /100 and SD. So, I think 300 is more than enough per your assumptions...
|
|
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
If you can suplement your bankroll with your own money, being strict about 300BB is silly. If you can beat the game and afford to play, then play!
|
|
|
|
Gatlin Dan
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
If you can suplement your bankroll with your own money, being strict about 300BB is silly. If you can beat the game and afford to play, then play!
|
If only supplementation were possible. Being unemployed currently, if I bust, I'm done. Better to err on the side of caution when it comes to bankroll management, I would think.
|
|
|
|
Chicago_Kid
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
|
|
Your new avatar is a good start!
|
|
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
|
|
Gatlin Dan
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
|
|
Thanks, I kind of thought it fit.
Fish hunting is fun...
|
|
|
|
ChezJ
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
|
|
one thing nobody has seemed to mention about the $1/$2 at party is the quality of the players. they are definitely different than the ones found at $0.50/$1. i was playing $1/$2 last night (because the rake is higher and therefore the deposit bonuses unlock faster) and was reminded how annoying they are at this level.
$1/$2 is rife with tricky players who have just learned how to slowplay and checkraise. they think they're so clever and so much smarter than everyone else. you gotta watch out for it or you will be repeatedly trapped. i think maybe 25% of the hands i played last night involved some jerkoff slowplaying his trips, straight, or even TP to the turn.
of course, this can work out in your favor because they give so many free/cheap cards. e.g. i had KJ and flopped 33J. mr. slowplay had the trips but smoothcalled my bet in LP. turn was another J (giving me top boat) but he smoothcalled to the river, where he finally decided to wake up and "ambush" me. hahaha what a moron.
look, there is a time and place for slowplaying and trapping. playing at a loose table where fish are calling you down with 55 is NOT the right time and place. playing in LP when it is checked to you is NOT the right time and place. holding trips or two pair when there is a 2 flush on the flop is NOT the right time and place.
oddly enough, these mediocre players tend to bunch up at the $1/$2 level but are less common at $2/$4. this is partly why fnord recommends skipping $1/$2 entirely if you can afford it. there's less headache to deal with from the tricksters, and a lot less rake to pay.
ChezJ
|
|
|
|
Gatlin Dan
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
|
|
chez, thanks for the info. This what I was kind of wondering when I asked about making the jump, the style of the play of the players. I can see how an abundance of slowplayer's can get annoying, but I have to remind myself of advice in SSH. Playing aggressively and getting trapped will usually only cost an extra bet or two, slowplaying a hand that is not strong enough to slowplay can cost you a whole pot. Frustrating as it can be, aggressive play is always rewarded in limit hold 'em. I'm sure constantly falling into traps by wannabe tricksters can be trying.
I've had an incredible run the last 24 hours. +190 BB's plus clearing a 140 dollar reload bonus. This 330 BB upswing in addition to what I had in the bankroll, puts me very close to having enough to skip 1/2 altogether. I'm going to 50/50 CON with Boondock and with any luck, the BR will be sufficient to start playing 2/4. Barring any big downswing, between now and the time the CON whoring gets back into neteller.
Quote:
|
was playing $1/$2 last night (because the rake is higher and therefore the deposit bonuses unlock faster)
|
Please explain your train of thought on this.
|
|
|
|
Starscream
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1
|
|
I'm new to this forum, so feel free to blast. I didn't see the fallback mentioned, though. I'm not an expert at poker yet, but I understand probability, and that the value of your particular BR exceeds it's dollar value. This is because you can't supplement it. So, the value of your BR is infinite from your point of view, because its end is your poker career's end.
I will not recommend a BR, but a procedure for handling the one you decide on. E.g., if you decide 300BB is your BR, and you get $600, and play, you can punt at a $300 loss. I.e., go back to 50/1. If you are more patient, you can wait until you have $900. Keep $300 as a 50/1 fallback, and that way you'd have the full $600 to absorb 1/2 swings, saving you the time of working back to $600 from a half broke swing. In fact, that would be much better, because you can play your game the whole time you sit on 1/2, with less concern of a punt.
Imo, this is the best scheme to handle the inability to buy BR with working money. All this assumes you are expectation positive, which it sounds like you are.
All this may not matter because of your recent streak though.
May you never have to punt,
S.
|
|
|
|
Gatlin Dan
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Starscream
the value of your particular BR exceeds it's dollar value. This is because you can't supplement it. So, the value of your BR is infinite from your point of view, because its end is your poker career's end.
May you never have to punt,
S.
|
Welcometo FTR...
The value of my bankroll is more valuable than the dollars amount for the reason you mentioned for sure, but also because it represents a huge time investment.
I just found out today that bankroll supplementation may be possible now. I was offered employment by an employer I've been trying to get hired on with for six months. I'd still like to not have to supplement the bankroll though, keeping poker money and job income completely seperate. It's important to me to have a self-sustaining bankroll that does not depend on outside funding.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
