Preflop PLO equities break my brain (tldr)

**KoRnholio** · 07-09-2012 11:04 PM

Donking around in some low limit PLO. "Donkey" is in there with rags, yet manages to have amazing equity.

100bb effective. "Donkey" limps, I pot it with AA43ds, button re-pots with AQJJss, Donkey cold calls 1/5 his stack, I re-pot ~all in, button shoves, donkey calls with his JT95ss.

Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 4s Ah 3h 148030 29.61 246544 49.31 105426 21.09 0.401
Js Ac Ad Qd 82906 16.58 310480 62.10 106614 21.32 0.272
Ts Jc 5c 9d 162450 32.49 336362 67.27 1188 0.24 0.326

Turns out having three straight cards, a rag and a live flush draw is enough to turn an aborted fetus hand into a +EV one against two guys with aces.

If we give him a dominated flush draw instead, his equity still isn't even that bad three way either.

Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 4s Ah 3h 138454 27.69 237111 47.42 124435 24.89 0.401
Js Ac Ad Qd 92766 18.55 281286 56.26 125948 25.19 0.311
Ts 9d Jh 5h 142832 28.57 355655 71.13 1513 0.30 0.287

**baudib** · 07-10-2012 10:02 AM

This happens in hold'em, too.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.741% 37.64% 00.10% 515958 1385.00 { Ah7h }
Hand 1: 31.764% 02.54% 29.22% 34870 400532.00 { KcKd }
Hand 2: 30.495% 01.27% 29.22% 17477 400532.00 { KhKs }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.986% 32.30% 01.68% 74386704 3878736.00 { A5s }
Hand 1: 33.007% 01.48% 31.53% 3398688 72611928.00 { AKo }
Hand 2: 33.007% 01.48% 31.53% 3398688 72611928.00 { AKo }

**drmcboy** · 07-11-2012 05:11 PM

[ ] rags

Just based on this post it seems likely you're playing too tight, I'd want to play against you the 4% of times you're raising too. Add some more hands into your raise range, or just limp everything.

**baudib** · 07-11-2012 08:42 PM

yeah, it's not exactly a dangler when it suits your biggest card and you can flop a straight with it. (Hwang would probably disagree tho).

**KoRnholio** · 07-11-2012 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by drmcboy

[ ] rags

Just based on this post it seems likely you're playing too tight, I'd want to play against you the 4% of times you're raising too. Add some more hands into your raise range, or just limp everything.

I'm opening way more than 4%. Any playable hands even as low as 8754, 9986, AJT9, A64xs (suited with the ace) I'll come in with a raise in 6max or MP/LP in full ring.

I haven't looked too hard at my 3 and 4-betting range, since at my stakes (25 and 50PLO) there's not many tough villains and most play pretty straightforward, especially with reraises.

Regarding his play with JT95ss, sure he is doing well against two AAxx hands, or even a big pair and a lower rundown. But if throw a dominating TJQK type hand into the mix his equity goes to shit.

Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9s Tc 5c Jh 68845 13.77 401659 80.33 29496 5.90 0.167
As 4s Ad 3d 288874 57.77 211126 42.23 0 0.00 0.578
Ks Qc Jc Th 112785 22.56 357719 71.54 29496 5.90 0.255

(with a live flush draw the JT95ss has .222 EV)

Just like in baudib's holdem example, sure A-x suited does great against two KKs, and quite well against two lower pairs. But toss in bigger A-x's into their range and now the equity is way worse.

**KoRnholio** · 07-11-2012 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by baudib

yeah, it's not exactly a dangler when it suits your biggest card and you can flop a straight with it. (Hwang would probably disagree tho).

6-card straights don't count extra

**baudib** · 07-12-2012 05:41 AM

Premium connectors are going to be reasonably good against AAxx hands and while JT95 isn't a premium connector, it has a lot of playability. Showing that it's a big underdog to AAxx and KQJT is somewhat obvious and uninteresting, IMO. There are a lot of spots where KQJT is going to be inferior to, say, JT98.

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07-09-2012 11:04 PM #1
KoRnholio View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2005 Posts 2,753 Location Canada	Preflop PLO equities break my brain (tldr) Donking around in some low limit PLO. "Donkey" is in there with rags, yet manages to have amazing equity. 100bb effective. "Donkey" limps, I pot it with AA43ds, button re-pots with AQJJss, Donkey cold calls 1/5 his stack, I re-pot ~all in, button shoves, donkey calls with his JT95ss. Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV As 4s Ah 3h 148030 29.61 246544 49.31 105426 21.09 0.401 Js Ac Ad Qd 82906 16.58 310480 62.10 106614 21.32 0.272 Ts Jc 5c 9d 162450 32.49 336362 67.27 1188 0.24 0.326 Turns out having three straight cards, a rag and a live flush draw is enough to turn an aborted fetus hand into a +EV one against two guys with aces. If we give him a dominated flush draw instead, his equity still isn't even that bad three way either. Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV As 4s Ah 3h 138454 27.69 237111 47.42 124435 24.89 0.401 Js Ac Ad Qd 92766 18.55 281286 56.26 125948 25.19 0.311 Ts 9d Jh 5h 142832 28.57 355655 71.13 1513 0.30 0.287
	Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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07-10-2012 10:02 AM #2
baudib View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2005 Posts 3,772	This happens in hold'em, too. equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 37.741% 37.64% 00.10% 515958 1385.00 { Ah7h } Hand 1: 31.764% 02.54% 29.22% 34870 400532.00 { KcKd } Hand 2: 30.495% 01.27% 29.22% 17477 400532.00 { KhKs } equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 33.986% 32.30% 01.68% 74386704 3878736.00 { A5s } Hand 1: 33.007% 01.48% 31.53% 3398688 72611928.00 { AKo } Hand 2: 33.007% 01.48% 31.53% 3398688 72611928.00 { AKo }
	Last edited by baudib; 07-10-2012 at 10:05 AM. Playing big pots at small stakes.
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07-11-2012 05:11 PM #3
drmcboy View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message DrButtInski Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 10,669	[ ] rags Just based on this post it seems likely you're playing too tight, I'd want to play against you the 4% of times you're raising too. Add some more hands into your raise range, or just limp everything.

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07-11-2012 08:42 PM #4
baudib View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2005 Posts 3,772	yeah, it's not exactly a dangler when it suits your biggest card and you can flop a straight with it. (Hwang would probably disagree tho).
	Playing big pots at small stakes.
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07-11-2012 10:50 PM #5
KoRnholio View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2005 Posts 2,753 Location Canada	Originally Posted by drmcboy [ ] rags Just based on this post it seems likely you're playing too tight, I'd want to play against you the 4% of times you're raising too. Add some more hands into your raise range, or just limp everything. I'm opening way more than 4%. Any playable hands even as low as 8754, 9986, AJT9, A64xs (suited with the ace) I'll come in with a raise in 6max or MP/LP in full ring. I haven't looked too hard at my 3 and 4-betting range, since at my stakes (25 and 50PLO) there's not many tough villains and most play pretty straightforward, especially with reraises. Regarding his play with JT95ss, sure he is doing well against two AAxx hands, or even a big pair and a lower rundown. But if throw a dominating TJQK type hand into the mix his equity goes to shit. Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV 9s Tc 5c Jh 68845 13.77 401659 80.33 29496 5.90 0.167 As 4s Ad 3d 288874 57.77 211126 42.23 0 0.00 0.578 Ks Qc Jc Th 112785 22.56 357719 71.54 29496 5.90 0.255 (with a live flush draw the JT95ss has .222 EV) Just like in baudib's holdem example, sure A-x suited does great against two KKs, and quite well against two lower pairs. But toss in bigger A-x's into their range and now the equity is way worse.
	Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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Preflop PLO equities break my brain (tldr)

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07-11-2012 11:35 PM #6
KoRnholio View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2005 Posts 2,753 Location Canada	Originally Posted by baudib yeah, it's not exactly a dangler when it suits your biggest card and you can flop a straight with it. (Hwang would probably disagree tho). 6-card straights don't count extra
	Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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07-12-2012 05:41 AM #7
baudib View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2005 Posts 3,772	Premium connectors are going to be reasonably good against AAxx hands and while JT95 isn't a premium connector, it has a lot of playability. Showing that it's a big underdog to AAxx and KQJT is somewhat obvious and uninteresting, IMO. There are a lot of spots where KQJT is going to be inferior to, say, JT98. ProPokerTools.com - Serious tools for serious players ProPokerTools.com - Serious tools for serious players ProPokerTools.com - Serious tools for serious players ProPokerTools.com - Serious tools for serious players
	Last edited by baudib; 07-12-2012 at 05:51 AM. Playing big pots at small stakes.
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