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Pre-flop quiz: Common situation in the BB

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Fnord

10-11-2004, 07:51 PM Post subject: Pre-flop quiz: Common situation in the BB

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Party 2/4 or 3/6 game. Mixed bag of players, table is overall LooPy with some weird aggression.

You're in the big blind. 4 players limp, SB completes.

What hands are you raising and why?

Bonus: What hands are close?

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melinda27

10-11-2004, 08:14 PM

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i'd say my strong drawing hands, big suited connectors and such. Because i'd be getting more money into the pot to give me good odds to go after my draws without much risk in being chased out of the pot by an overly aggressive player.

I still have alot to learn in poker so i'm assuming i'm waaaay off base here.

Fnord

10-11-2004, 08:19 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by melinda27

You're in the right ballpark. Certainly doing better than the weak/tight playbook that says you only raise AA/KK here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

melinda27

10-11-2004, 08:25 PM

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I wouldnt raise AA or KK here, because with 5 people in the pot and the odds of trimming down the field with a raise preflop are slim so basically i'm stuck playing them for set or backdoor flush/straight value and postflop reduced to check calling down or possibly even folding if the board gets too coordinated.

Is this the wrong thinking as well?

fishstick

10-11-2004, 08:28 PM

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based on your description of the table, your raise from the BB:

- probably wouldn't reduce the field, and,
- there's a chance you could get reraised

that said, you're basically raising to build the pot/for value, and to make your opponents make a mistake by calling your raise

AA, KK, QQ - JJ/TT not sure about

AK - AT suited

KQ - KJ suited

AK, AQ off

QJ, JT suited, not sure about - probably not

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Fnord

10-11-2004, 08:35 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by melinda27

Really weak/tight wrong. I think you catch a set around 20% of the time with all 5 cards. AA/KK win around ~50% here. With AA/KK, the bigger the field is the more +EV, but your variance also goes up. Hence, we can make the argument for limping them from EP if the game texure is such that your raise will scare off the fishies, but you will get a raise behind quite often.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

melinda27

10-11-2004, 08:37 PM

#7 (permalink)

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i figured i was wrong

koolmoe

10-11-2004, 08:38 PM Post subject: Re: Pre-flop quiz: Common situation in the BB

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

With the weird aggression you have some nice implied odds, and you have enough players along for the ride to build a pot for your opponents to draw.

I'd raise any suited A, pocket pairs 9 (8?) and higher, any suited paints.

Definitely wouldn't raise offsuited broadway cards.

Krapp

10-11-2004, 08:39 PM

#9 (permalink)

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I dont know why the reference to "Party" but Loopy is Loose/Passive? They are mostly calling stations? I would:

- limp my draws preflop (suited connectors, 1-gappers, 2-gappers)
- Big pairs: Doesnt have as much value into multi-way pots and against loose/passive players. If its a 5-way flop I would only raise the bigger pairs, in hopes to knock a few out on the flop. e.g. QQ, KK, AA, AK (maybe JJ). Since they are passive, dont have to worry about bluffs and raises... Since theyre loose, if they make it passed the flop, any TPTK isnt worth as much in a muti-way going to the river. However, starting-out with JJ+ against loopy players should justify a raise and maybe the postflop play would be passive enough where you might have an edge on the river.
- Big Suited connectors: AKs. I believe the suited connectors are strong only when you catch your draw against this table, so I dont think i would raise with them since I am only going to flop a draw 1 out-of 9 times.. Also the more opps in the better with these hands...

Fnord

10-11-2004, 08:42 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Krapp

I dont know why the reference to "Party" but Loopy is Loose/Passive? They are mostly calling stations? I would:

I'm giving a reference game.

The typical player here plays a few too many hands, calls too much and misapplies aggression in odd spots.

This isn't the 15/30 semi-pro + rich fishies game. Nor is it the micro-limit play any 2 and take it to the river (raise with the near nuts) game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

10-11-2004, 08:45 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Krapp

- Big Suited connectors: AKs. I believe the suited connectors are strong only when you catch your draw against this table, so I dont think i would raise with them since I am only going to flop a draw 1 out-of 9 times..

My suited connector play kinda sucks. Just curious what your odds are of flopping one or more of the following:

2 pair
trips
straight draw
flush draw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Krapp

10-11-2004, 08:54 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

My suited connector play kinda sucks. Just curious what your odds are of flopping one or more of the following:

2 pair
trips
straight draw
flush draw

2-pair -> 2%
trips -> 1.35%
straight draw -> dont know but I am gonna say its a little easier than flopping a flush draw (13%?)
flush draw -> 11%

Fnord

10-11-2004, 08:57 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Krapp

2-pair -> 2%
trips -> 1.35%
straight draw -> dont know but I am gonna say its a little easier than flopping a flush draw (13%?)
flush draw -> 11%

That gets you in the ballpark of playing 1 in 5 flops, making the case for a raise here.

opps... I ran the numbers once, here is what I got

3.5% two pair/trips/boat
7.2% strait draw
11% four flush
----
22%

I guess you can throw in the times you can peel one for a gutshot in a raised pot and make the case for raising...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Krapp

10-11-2004, 09:24 PM

#14 (permalink)

Flush

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

2-pair -> 2%
trips -> 1.35%
straight draw -> 7%
flush draw -> 11%
----
22%

Hm the straight draw gets me confused. Its worth less than a flush and its harder to make a straight draw on the flop and on the turn/river vs flush. I guess straight draws are more frequent with any 2-random cards than flushes... I guess the odds look ok to raise, but maybe I would prefer 1-more opp in since I am out-of-position.

Fnord

10-11-2004, 09:27 PM

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I'm not really scientific about this, so am probably off in some spots. I might even be too tight...

Big pairs, raise for value as you will win often without a set:
AA/KK/QQ/JJ
TT is close

Med/Small pairs:
99-22
You need a set or OSD for value. However, there is a school of thought that raising these will force otherwise somewhat tight players to call you down with more marginal holdings. With 5 other players is really close, and I'll just check to see a flop.

Big suited cards:
AK/AQ/AJ/AT
KQ

Monsters in a multi-pot, raise for value. With both high card value and a flush draw you will win more than your fair share.

Middle suited cards:
KJ/KT
QJ/QT
JT

Probably still a raise. JTs certainly is.

Suited Aces:
A9 and down

As your kicker gets lower you lose value, as it goes from close to about break even. The size of the field drives how low I'd go for my X.

Suited Connectors:
QJs - 54s

QJs, JTs and T9s still have some high card power and rarely make a sucker end hence are clear raises. As we go down the list it becomes closer.

Big Offsuit cards:
These guys are the pay-off hands in multi-pots. AK is still clearly a raise. AQ/AJ/KQ are close. Some players will raise and lead the flop. Others will check and look to check/raise the field if they hit. Raising anything else is throwing money away.

Suited semi-connectors:
Maybe some of them if the field was bigger, I'm inclinded to just say no.

Unsuited Connectors:
Nope

Junk:
Nope

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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Pre-flop quiz: Common situation in the BB

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