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dsaxton
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11-02-2005, 08:12 PM
Post subject: Pot Limit Omaha: Dubious river card.
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Do you check behind or bet here, and why?
PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
MP2 ($111.50)
MP3 ($39)
CO ($224.45)
Button ($95)
SB ($55.70)
Hero ($134.10)
UTG ($15.50)
UTG+1 ($52)
MP1 ($29.25)
Preflop: Hero is BB with T , 8 , 8, 3.
2 folds, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, SB completes, Hero checks.
Flop: ($6) 2, A , 8 (6 players)
SB bets $5.7, Hero raises to $13, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls $7.30.
Turn: ($32) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $16, SB calls $16.
River: ($64) A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Ergh. I think I check behind. A hand worse than eights full that would call a bet is hard to imagine - maybe twos full? A2, A6, and A8 are all ahead of you. What would he bet/call the flop and check/call the turn with? I'm pretty sure I check.
Incidentally, a bright friend of mine took advantage of me on a hand similar to this one in our home game. Basically I flopped bottom set (threes) and bet out, and he called me on a board of AJ3. On the turn the ace paired; I bet again and he now raised, and I called. On the river I checked and he bet pretty large. I folded it giving him credit for AJ or A3 (probably AJ), and he showed me a complete bluff.
Regardless, I think I check on this hand.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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I didn't see why he'd check to me on the river with aces full when I'm likely to check behind with most losing hands, so I decided he probably had 2-2 and since he was fairly pot-committed, I put his last $25 in. He called with his two outter A-8 and won.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
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Why would he check to you? well one - never overestimate the thinking capacity of a feeeesh. Two - there is something to be said for the simplistic logic that goes like this: you have been raising or betting into him on every street thus far, so with the nuts he can probably check and get some kind of bet out of you, even though checking behind would be a logical action for you with most hands that you are likely to have, including 88.
Re-visiting point one for a moment: never, ever, ever forget that in most poker games you will ever play in, there are players who obsessively and automatically check whenever they make a monster hand, especially if someone else has shown aggression previously in the hand. This is one barely-advanced poker concept that they do understand, and it's called "slowplay is good." It doesn't have to make sense. All you have to do is remember that they do it.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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I would put it all-in too. He looks like a short-stacked idiot who'll call with a pretty wide range. This time he just happened to have you beat.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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I also thought 2-2 was most likely since he either had two pair or a set, and I considered A-A unlikely given his passivity throughout the hand (and the fact that the river was another ace), A-2 seemed unlikely because he probably would've folded either on the flop or turn, and A-8 was unlikely because there was only one 8 left in the deck. So, I decided (wrongly, perhaps) that he probably had 2-2.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I also thought 2-2 was most likely since he either had two pair or a set, and I considered A-A unlikely given his passivity throughout the hand (and the fact that the river was another ace), A-2 seemed unlikely because he probably would've folded either on the flop or turn, and A-8 was unlikely because there was only one 8 left in the deck. So, I decided (wrongly, perhaps) that he probably had 2-2.
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KKxx or god-knows-what-else wouldn't surprise me either. Against a short stack like this I would put in a nice 10-20% donk-equity padding.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I would put it all-in too. He looks like a short-stacked idiot who'll call with a pretty wide range.
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For bonus points, analyze the range. I don't think it's as wide as you think. For one thing, he potted the flop (warning sign: fish do this with two pair or better most of the time) and then called a re-raise; then flat-called a pretty good-sized bet on the turn with a card that really, really looks like a blank. There's just not many hands he could have on an uncoordinated, rainbow board that do that, unless he's the biggest retard on God's green earth. And I'm not saying that's impossible. But I really think a bet on the end here is -EV.
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Fnord
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I might be reading too much into stack sizes. More information is always good.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
KKxx or god-knows-what-else wouldn't surprise me either. Against a short stack like this I would put in a nice 10-20% donk-equity padding.
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Experience tells me that donks who would bet the pot on a flop with KKxx and an overcard showing that HAD to have hit someone else, would have raised pre-flop because kingz R gud. Unless maybe he had KKAx. That's an awfully specific hand though, and it still means this board could have hit his other card and made him an accidental boat, if his other card is a 6, 8, or 2. Or let's say he had AKxx and was betting out TPTK... on the end he has trip aces and no boat, we're hoping?
I just don't see it. I think you are looking for rare-ish circumstances where this guy is a complete moron AND has a hand that a moron would play like this, and also pay you off on the end. While that's not impossible, I think it's just more likely that you're paying off his better boat.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I might be reading too much into stack sizes. More information is always good.
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It's a $100 table, isn't it? His stack is slim but not down to the felt yet. I really don't start pegging people as morons based on their stack alone until they get down to 1/4 of the max buy-in. Then I think you're right, this probably moves into value bet territory. Of course he wouldn't have any money left at this point in the hand if he was that short.
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lamaros
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 346
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unless he's playing clever with AA you have him. Unless you give him credit for that you have to go AI.
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dalecooper
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lamaros
unless he's playing clever with AA you have him. Unless you give him credit for that you have to go AI.
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huh? He could be playing very straight-forwardly with any two pair involving an ace and have the best hand on the river. Which is exactly what he *was* doing. His play here is textbook "I flopped two pair and someone raised me, so I'm going to slow down but not go away."
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lamaros
unless he's playing clever with AA you have him. Unless you give him credit for that you have to go AI.
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huh? He could be playing very straight-forwardly with any two pair involving an ace and have the best hand on the river. Which is exactly what he *was* doing. His play here is textbook "I flopped two pair and someone raised me, so I'm going to slow down but not go away." |
I would think that folding something like top and bottom pair when being faced with strength from most opponents would be pretty textbook.
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ihategnomes
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Full House
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Well he had top 2. You cant play textbook against people playing like calling station douchebags. HEFAP said it best, "The idea is to maximise you profit from his mistakes, note this is entirely different than playing perfectly." "This is also another reason why very good players under perform in very good games".
Stop trying to justify your reasoning based on your opponnents being douchebags. You said the textbook move would be to fold, but you dont want him to do that. He played the hand wrong and in theory you won. However, I think you can check behind here, unless you have a read that the player has been calling down with bottom 2 numerous times. PLO players generally lose more money with AAxx and underfulls than any other hands.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
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Textbook for a good player, sure. I'm assuming he plays like most of them play. How many players in online low stakes games - any game, be it Omaha, hold 'em, or whatever - fold any kind of hand to what is basically a min-raise on the flop, after they made the first bet? I guess when I used the word "textbook" it was the wrong word. I should have said, "This looks exactly like your average player who flopped two pair and doesn't know enough to realize that a raise means trouble."
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lamaros
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 346
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My experience with idiots:
They keep calling when you raise them if they're behind, but if they hit then they bet out at you straigt away without thinking.
Therefore you shouldn't put this guy on A8, and should at least make a decent bet, if not go AI.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ihategnomes
Well he had top 2. You cant play textbook against people playing like calling station douchebags. HEFAP said it best, "The idea is to maximise you profit from his mistakes, note this is entirely different than playing perfectly." "This is also another reason why very good players under perform in very good games".
Stop trying to justify your reasoning based on your opponnents being douchebags. You said the textbook move would be to fold, but you dont want him to do that. He played the hand wrong and in theory you won. However, I think you can check behind here, unless you have a read that the player has been calling down with bottom 2 numerous times. PLO players generally lose more money with AAxx and underfulls than any other hands. |
Eh, I only made a statement about how 'standard' a certain play is. Dalecooper said that calling down with any two pair is standard, I said folding top and bottom pair when facing strength seems pretty standard.
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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If villian pushes allin on the river do you call?
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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Actually I think you mistake in the hand was on the turn, Id bet the pot here. This pretty much changes the river play as he is almost allin anyways.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ihategnomes
Actually I think you mistake in the hand was on the turn, Id bet the pot here. This pretty much changes the river play as he is almost allin anyways.
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Why would you bet the pot on the turn?
I made a bet that would probably lead him to commit himself as a big underdog, since I figured he was completely dominated. I don't want him folding when he's drawing to 2 outs at best.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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I was about to post the same thing...
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
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You think hes folding to a full sized potbet on the turn? How do you mix up your betting patterns on the turn? Do you bet less when you have a good hand thus giving off a tell?
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ihategnomes
You think hes folding to a full sized potbet on the turn? How do you mix up your betting patterns on the turn? Do you bet less when you have a good hand thus giving off a tell?
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On the turn we want it all in for showdown. Potting the turn isn't nessisarly the best way to do this. It's not a bet size/balance/etc issue. It's highway robbery done over 2 streets against a guy that probably can't see past 1 street.
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aislephive
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In a tournament it's nessecary to just put him all in, but in a cash game you're just throwing your money away. When that second ace comes on the river you don't bother betting. There's no sense in betting on the river when you don't know where you are. Top two pair or bottom set is possible, but top two are more likely in this situation because most players will be wise enough to toss a pair of two's away preflop. Just check and see if your hand is good on the river. It was a poor play by the SB to check on the river with the nuts, he needs to bet here because there's almost no chance you're folding and the ace is a scare card that will most likely induce a check on the river.
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