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DeanCarl

03-29-2005, 01:49 PM Post subject: Possibly no answer to this.

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Alpine, CA

Posts: 80

I've been mostly (99%) an NL Tourney player since I started 10 months ago. Lately I've been thinking about taking a shot at some limit games just to see how it goes.

However, there is a problem. Due to a disablility (lung cancer) I have to take a small amount of a narcotic pain reliever. Not enough to stone me out or anything, but enough to play hob with some of the higher brain functions like ... well ... math.

And I know from watching and reading (and playing a few hands) that the math is a lot more important for success in limit ring games (and NL ring games for that matter) than it is for NL tourneys (though I ALSO know that if I could master the math I'd do better in those games also).

I understand the concepts. Pot odds, implied odds, figuring outs and odds of hitting certain hands. But actually doing the math on the fly is just about impossible for me to do and stay inside the time alloted for betting in the online card rooms.

So, unfortunately, I need to know if there are any "shortcuts" to figuring these things out as the hand progresses. I know shortcuts won't be as accurate as working it out, but if there aren't any I'm gonna have to stay away from limit HE .... or hire my wife stand behind me and do the math. (I've never seen ANYONE who can do "money math" like her. Ask her what 7.35% of $127.51 is and you'll have your answer in just under a second and a half

).

Any help is muchly appreciated.

Dean

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|~|ypermegachi

03-29-2005, 02:26 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

have a cheat sheet beside you

Demiparadigm

03-29-2005, 02:29 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

The math is much less important than people think (and i am one of the most math-oriented people on the forum)
Bet strong draws for value, fold weak made hands and you should do fine. The math only comes into play in very close situations, and since they are close, it doesn't matter much what you do.
In call/fold situations, tend to fold.
In call/raise situations, tend to raise.

Hope this helps.

Jay67s

03-29-2005, 02:36 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: West Virginia

Posts: 241

do a google search for "Texas Holdem Odds" in less than five minutes you will have # of outs to % charts.

You can also find charts the list the values in the form 6 to 1 instead of the percent, I find these easier, because you can just multiply the bet time the first number, thats how much needs to be in the pot. But don't forget implied odds

Pot odds mostly come into the play on draws.

Hope this helps

Rondavu

03-29-2005, 03:15 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

I agree with Demiparadigm. Doing math while playing hold-em is usually being too peticular. If you have a gut shot draw coupled with a flush draw and two over cards, you raise. No math needed to figure that out.

Usually I figure out how many outs I had after I complete a hand. I had a hand recently where I flopped 21 outs. I didn't know exactly how many while playing the hand. I wasn't doing equations before betting. I just knew I had strong possibilities by looking at the board and bet my ass off.

I would suggest playing at a very low limit for a while so that you can get a feel for the differences. It has some different dynamics. If you think there are a bunch of math wiz chess club captains hanging out on limit tables, you might be exaggerating the circumstances.

Just bet when you feel you are winning the hand or have a great chance to improve to a winner, watch out for coordinated boards with lots of people in, and raise your monsters. With few people in the hand, bet out your flush and straight draws, so as to conceal strong hands when you hit them. Betting out only when you make them will cause a mass folding session, because your assuming control on a now coordinated board.

One of the biggest differences between limit and no limit is the dynamic of raising for a free card in late position when the betting is cheap.The flop bet is half the size of the turn and river bets. If you have a draw on the flop and someone in early position bets out, you raise him to see fifth street for free. If fourth street doesn't make your hand, but gives you more outs (straight draw to add to a flush draw for instance), then you bet fourth street for value and give yourself two ways to win the pot (force a fold or make your hand). In the process your building a pot you have an outstanding chance to win. That's just textbook stuff. It should be the first fundamentals of limit you learn.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

gutshot

03-29-2005, 03:35 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2004

Location: lemonade was a popular drink and it still is

Posts: 608

I think a couple people on here have made skins for some of the sites that lay an odds chart right on the table for you to see.

Anybody got a link?

-jay

"i think the biggest leak in my game is using 2nd level thinking against players who can't think on the first level." -Renton

|~|ypermegachi

03-29-2005, 03:48 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

here's the link to my last skin:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=7999

it's got the chart in there. i don't use it very much as most of the stuff is second nature.

Chicago_Kid

03-29-2005, 04:12 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...

Posts: 1,132

Quote:

Originally Posted by gutshot

I think a couple people on here have made skins for some of the sites that lay an odds chart right on the table for you to see.

Anybody got a link?

Go to www.playerview.net. they have good examples (like Hyper's) on how to design your skin if you are in to that. I created one using a demo version of Photoshop. I'm not a hardcore techie, and I figured it out---took me an hour of tweaking the 'table.*' file (for party skins) and I was good-to-go.

However, a cheat sheet taped to your monitor might do to start. After 20k hands you should more or less have a feel for the main draws (flush, OESD, gutshot...1 outer

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

Element187

04-05-2005, 05:45 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 802

pick up some sklansky books.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

RiverMonkey

04-05-2005, 08:46 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Check out my post in this thread:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=7635

It lists ALL the various methods that I've found for hold'em pot odds.

At the table, I find that it's best to use o*(p+1) and compare that to the number of 'unseen' cards. IMHO, this is by far the easiest method. You never have to do any division, and you are always working with pot odds & odds-against (no probabilities); all you have to do is know the effective size of the pot (in live games the dealer usually helps you with this by saying 'x players' going into the flop, turn and river), your clean+hidden outs (not always easy to determine!!!), and whether you are drawing going into the turn or river (47, or 46 unseen cards respectively).

However, by far the easiest way is to just recognize/memorize that given 'x' number of players going into the flop (implies a certain pot size), means that it is almost always profitable to draw to the following draws:

(reference & para-phrased from: "Abdul's Theory of Sucking Out". These guidelines generally assume a multi-way pot unless specified otherwise)

On the Turn
-------------
o call one bet with OESD and flush draws (with a medium sized pot you can call two cold)
o with a made set you should be calling all bets (or raising depending on the situation)
o Two over-cards are usually not a good draw on the turn (unless HU)
o Pot has to be large to draw to a gut-shot on the turn, and it should only really be to the nut str8

On the Flop
-------------
o On the flop, same draws are profitable as specified for the turn above; often even for two bets cold.
o Call with gut-shots to the nuts if you are pretty sure it will just be for one bet
o A pair with a back-door flush is usually profitable for one bet
o Back-door flush and a back door str8 combo for one bet
o Other combo draws for one bet e.g. over-cards plus back-door flush, or over cards plus back-door OESD
o Drawing with just over-cards is usually not profitable unless you have good ones (i.e. board doesn't have str8 or flush draws), you're in an unraised pot (pre-flop) and you are also generally heads up to 3-way. Multi-way? .. forgettaboutit, find another spot to toss your chips in.

I recommend you assume a certain number of limpers (or limpers, raisers, plus cold callers etc.), and do all the math for all these draws in a spread-sheet to help you memorize and work through it all. That will also help you with knowing exactly what is meant by 'medium', or 'large' pot. Then, take that one step further and do the pot-equity calcs to determine when you can raise for value even though you are drawing.

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