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Shark Bait
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04-23-2005, 01:18 AM
Post subject: Pocket pairs with paired board
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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ok obviously the hope with pocket pairs, especially the low ones, is to flop the set. But what if instead of the set, the board pairs? Does this make your hand more or less playable? Yes there's a chance someone else flopped a set, but now there are 4 cards out there that can give you the boat.
I know it makes a big difference if you have a high or a low pocket pair...so what would be your suggestions?
22...I know some people might not play this from any position and it's a check/fold on the big blind, but what is the best move here if the board pairs on the flop?
mid pocket pair...what about these? what if the board pair is higher or lower than your own?
AA...I suppose you're staying in this hand no matter what...but is there any advice how the board pairing changes your hand?
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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I was kind of hoping for at least one response. 
I guess my final conclusion is that it doesn't make that much of a difference. There's a chance someone made trips, but there's also a chance you could get a boat...so they kind of cancel out.
?
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Laeelin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
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If there is a flush/straight draw, i dotn mind the board pairing so much, otherwise, I hate it.
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whileone
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 306
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It's nowhere near as useful as two cards in your hand, each pairing one on the board. usualy your pocket pair isn't an overpair, so you can count on *somebody* having at least a pair as well. if they have top pair, well you're fuxored.
pocket AA, you're good. pocket 22, you're hosed. pocket 99... can be tricky to play. depends on the board and your reads.
a four outer is only like 16% by the river. not hopless, but you need some good odds to call. like better than 10 to 1. and, as you said, you're boat may not be big enough if there are 3 of a kind on the board.
usualy i treat it as a pretty marginal hand. worse than 2 pair, unless the pocket pair is bigger than the board, or you're pretty sure the guy has 2 overcards and there's nothing big on the board.
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Noooooooooooooooo!!
--Darth Vader
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Fnord
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04-26-2005, 04:05 AM
Post subject: Re: Pocket pairs with paired board
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#5 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shark Bait
AA...I suppose you're staying in this hand no matter what...but is there any advice how the board pairing changes your hand?
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You don't have to worry anymore about some fish hitting both of their hole cards to beat you. Either someone has trips and you're way behind or you're way ahead.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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if your pocket pair is higher than the third card on the board (e.g. you have 88 and the board is TT5) then you should assume you have the best hand and bet/raise accordingly. the chances of someone having trips is low since there are only 2 matching cards left in the whole deck. but anyone who hit that low third card will bet out thinking their 2pr is good. if you raise them, they will immediately put you on the T, and possibly fold on the turn. even if they don't, you have them beat. just gotta worry about the other limpers catching a higher pair on the turn.
ChezJ
p.s. if you are heads up then you should bet out no matter what because the odds are 2:1 against him catching a pair on the flop.
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bunthorne
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shark Bait
I was kind of hoping for at least one response.
I guess my final conclusion is that it doesn't make that much of a difference. There's a chance someone made trips, but there's also a chance you could get a boat...so they kind of cancel out.
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Whenever the board pairs, it decreases the possibility that your opponent has paired one of his cards, so in that sense you are not in bad shape. Of course, as you've said, a set is a very real possibility.
The key is to find out how good your two pair is and whether or not someone has trips. A bet on the flop in limit poker is unlikely to tell you this as most players will routinely see the turn card (a bad ploy) unless the pair is a high/premium pair, in which case it may frighten players into folding. If after the turn there are two people still betting or limping, then the likelihood is that someone has trips, unless there are straight/flush draws out there.
I always play this situation cautiously and if I think the likelihood of trips is strong, then I muck the hand. Even if I make a full house, with a pair already on the board I might not have the best hand.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bunthorne
I always play this situation cautiously and if I think the likelihood of trips is strong, then I muck the hand. Even if I make a full house, with a pair already on the board I might not have the best hand.
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Wow, that's weak.
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bunthorne
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bunthorne
I always play this situation cautiously and if I think the likelihood of trips is strong, then I muck the hand. Even if I make a full house, with a pair already on the board I might not have the best hand.
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Wow, that's weak. |
Yeah, maybe it is, it's just a judgment call in each situation. Others might play it differently. As I probably haven't put a lot of money in the pot up to this point, I usually feel that it isn't worth going after as there is a strong possibility that I am beat. A larger pot might alter the situation, especially if I know the opponents, but I try not to get hurt in unraised pots.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bunthorne
As I probably haven't put a lot of money in the pot up to this point,
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I like to raise, so this isn't often true.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bunthorne
I usually feel that it isn't worth going after as there is a strong possibility that I am beat. A larger pot might alter the situation, especially if I know the opponents
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It's easy to over-estimate the chances you're beat. Particularly against somewhat aggro opposition (Party 3/6 game and up.) Hold'em is often the game where no one really has much of anything.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bunthorne
I try not to get hurt in unraised pots.
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Same here.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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This is a really vague question. Position plays a major role in these situations. I like to be the one making bets from late positionin this spot. Watching out for bets/raises from passive players and calling down aggressive players in certain spots based on reads/size of pot/"feel".
These kinds of spots are tricky for sure and there is no right/wrong answer. These is no substitute for experience here.
On a flopped paired board, look out for someone check/calling the flop and check/raising the turn . Stop and go action with no obvious help from the turn card is usually an indication to release or call down based on your opp.
22, 33 - I play exactly like I would an A high. Other pockets, depends on what I put my opp on. If you're up against the blinds on a trash board...they might have a pair. If your up against a guy that likes to raise any two paint cards...you might be good with your mid-PP. Live and learn.
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whileone
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 306
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
if your pocket pair is higher than the third card on the board (e.g. you have 88 and the board is TT5) then you should assume you have the best hand and bet/raise accordingly.
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That makes sense... i was thinking more like, my pocket pair is 88
flop comes 4 6 T, i bet, turn is a T... i start getting nervous out because 2rd pair dosn't look to great anymore. did he call with overcards? or with a pair?... the scary pair? most likely id bet the turn, fold to a raise. tough to say if i'd check or bet the river. depends on the card. and A and i'd probably check/fold. J check/call. 2, bet. something like that.
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Noooooooooooooooo!!
--Darth Vader
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Theeggman
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 363
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I remember a hand where I held 33 and the flop came QQT, everyone checked, turn came Q, I bet out & got 2 callers, river: 9, I bet out again and got a caller and beat his str8 with my FH. It was risky but without much action I figured my boat was good and I was right. I'm sure this has happened to many of you before.
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I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
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honsheung
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Theeggman
I remember a hand where I held 33 and the flop came QQT, everyone checked, turn came Q, I bet out & got 2 callers, river: 9, I bet out again and got a caller and beat his str8 with my FH. It was risky but without much action I figured my boat was good and I was right. I'm sure this has happened to many of you before.
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I don't think so . If there are many people see the flop , they may have a pocket pair higher than yours, it is very likely.
So i won't bet in turn.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by honsheung
I don't think so . If there are many people see the flop , they may have a pocket pair higher than yours, it is very likely.
So i won't bet in turn.
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I like it. If they're tight, they'll often fold to his bet.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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Interesting question. Whenever the board pairs it means there are possible full house and 4 of a kind hands out there. In one of the gauntlet games last season the board paired and my opponent had 4 of a kind. Even though you think they don't have the monster hand you never know...
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honsheung
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 153
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Yep, right.
So stick to this rule is simpel.
Whenever somebody calls you in a paired up board, pay attention to his action , a turn raise or a river raise that mean he had you already, no matter how many people see the flop.
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
if your pocket pair is higher than the third card on the board (e.g. you have 88 and the board is TT5) then you should assume you have the best hand and bet/raise accordingly. the chances of someone having trips is low since there are only 2 matching cards left in the whole deck. but anyone who hit that low third card will bet out thinking their 2pr is good. if you raise them, they will immediately put you on the T, and possibly fold on the turn. even if they don't, you have them beat. just gotta worry about the other limpers catching a higher pair on the turn.
ChezJ
p.s. if you are heads up then you should bet out no matter what because the odds are 2:1 against him catching a pair on the flop.
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I like this advice, I never really thought of it that way (considering the third card) I'll keep it in mind.
And thanks to everyone for a nice discussion on this issue, I haven't really seen anyone else talk about it.
Most of the time I don't get the boat and then it really depends on if my pocket pair is good or not.
Sometimes I get the boat and depending on the pocket pair, it can be good or bad. Result is always winning or losing a lot. Losing it I either have a weak boat or I am beat by 4 of a kind. But I will add that the 4 of a kind beat is very rare and I wouldn't even consider it much of an issue. Besides, the person had trips on the flop, I'd be wary of their raises and probably figure they have trips before they made the four of a kind and I made a boat.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
if you raise them, they will immediately put you on the T, and possibly fold on the turn. even if they don't, you have them beat. just gotta worry about the other limpers catching a higher pair on the turn.
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For what it's worth, the Ten usually smooth calls the flop (unless it's in a position to make a pot building raise with multiple callers in front) and then tries to get cute on the turn. If you make an isolation raise on a TT5 board it's a very strong read that you don't have a Ten.
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honsheung
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 153
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I appreciate all the ideas given by all of you, but i am so stupid that a need a generalization. And so do other newbies, I think. 
anyone can give a generalization here?
Let's say a pari board 10 10 5 , rainbow. Now you headups with somebody.
if you have 5x
if you have 10x
if you have 88
When you are first to act : how to play?
When you have position: how to play?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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There are no staight forward answers for Heads-up. It depends so much on your opponent. How aggro is he? How much does he like to call?
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