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PLOH: lol at the fish, but what about my play?

  
 
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krimson
Old 10-25-2005, 08:10 PM     Post subject: PLOH: lol at the fish, but what about my play? #1 (permalink)  
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Posts: 108
krimson
I started playing low stakes Pot Limit Omaha a few days ago, and I'm winning quite a lot. I'm playing very straight-forwardly, never getting involved in a monster pot unless I have the nuts (or near nuts, such as nut full house) or a sufficiently big draw. It's paying off, but I wonder if I'm being too timid.
Take the hand below for example. I hit, and I won a 300BB pot, but I'm concerned that I would have missed out on a lot of value by giving a free card if I hadn't hit the turn.

Omaha High Pot Limit, BB = 0,20
Players:
krimson (62,98)
moguuli (20,70)
sssggg (58,20)
winelord (18,50)
Shrewish (25,98)
clabak (49,57)
x23 (9,80)

Dealer: krimson
moguuli posts small blind (0,10)
sssggg posts big blind (0,20)
krimson was dealt: 9 - 9 - T - 3
winelord folds
Shrewish folds
clabak calls (0,20)
x23 folds
krimson calls (0,20)
moguuli raises (0,90)
sssggg calls (0,80)
clabak calls (0,80)
krimson calls (0,80)
Flop 6 - 5 - 9
moguuli bets (4,00)
sssggg folds
clabak calls (4,00)
krimson calls (4,00)
Turn 6 - 5 - 9 - 5
moguuli bets (15,70) and is all-in
clabak calls (15,70)
krimson raises (41,00)
clabak fold
krimson payback (25,30)
River 6 - 5 - 9 - 5 - K

moguuli shows: J - Q - 9 - J (two pairs, jacks and fives)
krimson shows: 9 - 9 - T - 3 (a full house, nines full of fives)

krimson wins: 60,10 (with a full house, nines full of fives)
Rake: 3,00

moguuli is the biggest fish in the sea. During the past hour or so he has lost maybe five buy-ins, each time because he went AI with something retarded like bottom two pair. Last time, however, he sucked out on someone, so he now has about twice as many chips as usual. That's part of the reason why I played my admittedly not very great starting hand: I didn't want to miss the chance to make a hand and take his stack before someone else.
I flopped top set, moguuli potted with what I presumed was unimproved AA or KK, and clabak calls. clabak seemed to be reasonably clued up, and since there was a straight possibility I decided to just call and draw to the boat. The turn filled me up, and the turn play seems pretty obvious (BTW clabak claimed he folded 66, the second nut full house).
But what about the flop play? By not raising I gave a free card to any straight or flush draws out there. Should the fact the clabak didn't raise tell me that he didn't have the nuts (=87 for the straight), and that I could raise knowing that I was ahead? On the other hand I think that moguuli's money is going in on the turn anyway, so it won't be difficult to get money into the pot even if the draws miss.
But what will I do if I don't fill up on the turn? If moguuli pots and clabak folds it's an easy call since moguuli is a retard. If the flush hits, moguuli pots and clabak raises I probably fold. Is this too weak?
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lamaros
Old 10-25-2005, 10:03 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Posts: 346
lamaros
That's a marginal hand you played there, I don't know if I'd play it most of the time. Even given your stated reasons I wouldn't call this that much(And I'm pretty darn loose). I certainly wouldn't pay the raise.

That said, you hit the flop. You're either ahead here and want to be pushing it, or you want to fold. If you're ahead you want to bet the pot and not give anyone odds to draw, and if you're behind you don't want to be playing your hand here as a draw as you have hardly any outs.

Four people to the flop is not a whole heap, so the chances are quite good that no one has the straight here, the chances are very good that no one has the straight and a flush draw. The fish bets and you get one fold and a call behind. The fish could just have top pair, so you can't read too much in to him, but the guy who calls behind you think isn't a bad player. Which means he probably has a draw of some kind, or a weak made hand(2pair or a set) and is unsure about you (position is key!). If he has the straight here he is going to bet the pot most times, he won't want to give you odds to chase a better straight/flush. So I don't think you can put him on the straight. The only time he might not bet the pot is if he also has the nut flush draw with his straight and is trying to trap you into chasing it. But this is pretty unlikely.

Remember, position is very important in omaha. You have top set and position; you have to bet the pot. You can't call that flop. It seems clear you have the best hand, unless the fish got lucky, and you don't want to give free cards. Chances might be that you'll get the fish calling, and then possibly the other guy calling behind if he has the flush draw(I'd expect him to fold most other hands).

Betting the pot also makes others unsure what hand you might have. They might put you on the straight, which means if the board pairs with a spade you could get paid off very well by someone chasing the flush.
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ihategnomes
Old 10-26-2005, 02:12 AM #3 (permalink)  
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ihategnomes
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There is no reason to ever play this hand. Ever. Or least only in the BB when you see a flop for free.
Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
 
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TLR
Old 10-26-2005, 03:32 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
There is no reason to ever play this hand. Ever. Or least only in the BB when you see a flop for free.
Quated for truth.

To play a weak hand vs a fish is a recipe for disaster, more likely then not he will have a better hand then you do after the flop.
And calling a preflop raise with this hand is even worse then the initial limp.

There are a lot of fish in the sea, and if you want to be a successful fishermen you need the one trait that is common to all good fishermen - you need patience
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