www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

PLO MTT discussion

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

glass_onion

04-11-2007, 03:49 PM Post subject: PLO MTT discussion

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2007

Posts: 23

I'm obviously a new poster, but I'm a decent contributor to the 2+2 forum PLO threads. I'm pretty knowledgable, and have a good record at PLO $50-$200, though i've shortstacked $1000 games when the conditions are right. I really like this forum becuase even though there is less volume, all the posts I read seem of high quality, good reasoning, and from knowledable people.

What I'd like to do is open up a discussion about PLO tournaments, and thier differences from NLHE MTT and our strategic adjustments.

In terms of where to start, I think we need to outline this like you would
NLHE MTT's. I think we are all pretty well versed in how to play deep stack PLO cash games, and we all should have good ideas on holdem MTT's. Therefore, specific concepts such as: what changes when you play tournamnet PLO vs ring games. Tournament PLO vs MTT's NLHE?

Low M situations, blind stealing, fold equity.

To learn NLHE, I think you first need to start with structured hand
analysis, what top 10%, 15%, 20%, 30% hands are preflop. I think everyone on this site understands Single table tournament pushbotting. Moreover, they understand how to put an opponent on a range when they are calling late tournament all in, and how your hand plays against that range. Convert this knowledge to PLO tournaments: obviously hand ranges run closer together preflop. Also the pot limit structure means that you can't just go all in with m=7 like you would in no limit holdem.

Assuming someone limped early in holdem both of your 'm's' were around 7, you held a hand like 99 or AQ or AJsutied you'd go right in. about the worst thing I think you could to was raise pot, giving him 2:1, This would negate all fold equity, which is a huge portion of EV in late tournament
situations.

This is what we are forced to do in PLO tournaments, however. If you picked up a hand similar in strength to aq, or 99, say KK97 DS, 4678DS, I'd like to go all in. However, you've got pretty much no Fold equity, due to PL structure limits, so how does this change your situaiton with m=6ish???

One thing would be to limp and look to push favorable flops. I don't like
it, because I feel that a lot of players still fold given 2:1, when there are obviously around zero situations where you should do so. If you are
reasonably confident that you can get HU, and OOP had m=6, your all in on flop would be giving him enormous odds. Ultimatly you would achieve you desired result of getting all your chips in with a top 15% hand by raising pot PF, pushing any flop.

Raise M's to M=10. You raise pot 3.5bb and you are again looking to get HU
with the MP limper with a top 15% hand. Assume you have one of the hands listed above. Of the flop pot will be around 7bb, you will both have less than that left. Again you should be looking to push just about any flop, in my opinion, with the notable exeption of you having something like 4567 single suit, flop TJQ. I'd still pot bad flops like QQT with this hand -unless I had won a bunch of pots on flop recently - because paired flops are less likely to hit an opponent, and you probably get a fold out of Txxx here a lot of the time. Discuss.

Raise M to 15 or so and you get better areas for discussion. An observant
opponent could conceivably 'float' my flop raise and look to steal turn,
especially as m approaches the high teens. This is NOT a play I think occurs often, however, relative to TOURNAMENTS (cash games, completely different, read ROLF's book).

I think raising your top 20% here is very important because PLO hands
preflop run very close in value. Worst case you have KKxx and get RR by
AAxx. Assuming you are suited at least one way, you are not much worse off than AJ vs KQ here. What's more important is that you aren't ALL IN, so what equity you are giving up is less dramatic than in NLHE situations. This is a HUGE distinction, and you should all undertand it well. Your ability to fold or have implied odds against a mentally pot committed AAxx here I feel almost make up the difference. Of course if you had something like 4678DS I don't care at all that he RR me, in fact I could even understand pushing here if you thought the opponent was not certaintly on AA. My play is still to call, and play omaha from the flop, though, almost always.

My plans typically are to C-bet around 75% of the time, around 75% to 100% of pot. This is a lot different that holdem C-bets, which I do about 60% of the time, at around 1/2 to 2/3. This is due to two factors: First, I find> PLO players are far more passive, due to misunderstanding of the game and fear of monster hands, even late and at short tables. If you get Raised on the flop, you can typically assume you are facing the top two or three big made hands or draws, and calcualte equtiy on it, calmly making the right decision. Second, by being very lag in these situations you are encouraging people to only play the best hands against you, becuase most people arent' going to put all thier chips in against your raise even with a hand like QQ47 DS or 679T single suited, even though it could eaisly be a favorite and at worst be a trivially easy call if they knew anything. That means they are easy to read, you can get out of danger in most spots, and in the meantime you will steal a lot of hands.

My M=20+ is basically standard ring game play. Discuss if you feel this is
not optimal.

What I'd like to see is a good discussion of these thoughts here.
Participants can post hands relevant to the M=6, M=10, and M=15+ topics and discuss. I'd very much like to have people at least play devils advocate here if they agree with my theories, or better yet post why they disagree and provide reasons why.

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

KoRnholio

04-11-2007, 11:25 PM Post subject: Re: PLO MTT discussion

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

I'm glad that this forum has revived a bit, maybe one day Omaha will have it's own forum on here

Anyways, I will add my 2 cents on here after I compile a good sized post addressing all the points you've mentioned.

Personally, I haven't played all that many PLO MTTs/SNGs, but this thread is well-timed since I am playing in the Sunpoker PLO Challenge sit n go. It's on Sunday the 15th at 2:30 pm EST (only visible on Sunpoker) if anyone would like to rail me (MATTZOMB is my alias on there). $15,000 total in prizes, including a buyin to the $10,000 PLO WSOP tournament for the first place finisher.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

salsa4ever

04-12-2007, 04:23 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 1,073

I know jack shit about PLO tourneys. I only know slightly more than jack shit about PLO generally

Since this is your thread I'll take the opportunity to say hi and introduce myself. I'm glad you've decided to start posting here!

Thanks for your input in my operation thread too! It's nice knowing someone actually reads. I'll continue to post hands there now; your input is great. Do you know PLO8 btw. Also, what stakes and site do you frequent?

My NL ring background makes me a fairly aggressive player. I love to bet and raise with made and unmade hands wherever I can. My VPIP for both PLO and PLO8 is 25. Do you have stats?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?

glass_onion

04-12-2007, 01:24 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2007

Posts: 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

Thanks for your input in my operation thread too! It's nice knowing someone actually reads. I'll continue to post hands there now; your input is great. Do you know PLO8 btw. Also, what stakes and site do you frequent?

My NL ring background makes me a fairly aggressive player. I love to bet and raise with made and unmade hands wherever I can. My VPIP for both PLO and PLO8 is 25. Do you have stats?

I've actually never been able to make any real money on NLHE tables. I put my bankroll together painfully at .5/1 limit holdem, but got bored with that in short order. I've killed the PLO tables, and that seems to be the only thing I make a good win off of.

Honestly, I've really thought about expanding to PLO8, but I don't like the idea of multitabling and forgetting that this table was hi/lo and donking off half a buyin, or worse. Right now I like to play 3-4 PLO tables at $100 -$200 buyin, and 3-4 MTT that i simply nit (right out of Harrington on Holdem).

I feel very knowledgable about PLO ring games and NHLE strategy in various stages. I have won 4 $20x180 on stars, and 8th at the $11R on stars (1566 players starting) for good prizes. Lately I've been on a -$1100 tournament streak, with few final tables in the last 35 tournaments (2 weeks).

Stats for limit holdem used to be 18/9, agg at 2.1.
PLO is 24% /9% at 6 max tables, which puts me at very, very tight preflop.

zenbitz

04-12-2007, 07:42 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

hey, great post. I know less than salsa. I do have a general sense that NLHE online players are getting quite good, and PLO is a harder game, so maybe there is more of an edge there. I am just getting a feel for it though.

Still, I will try to post something reasonable cogent.

M=20, play standard (I guess 24/9). If you raise pot, and pot flop you will have put 1/4 of your stack in, and will be all in if you are called and there is another bet. That's HU. -3 way, clearly you cannot continue without a piece of the flop or AA.

At 15-20 I don't see anyone floating you unless they have at least 2x your stack.

Relative stack size seems even more importanty in PLO tourney than MTT.

caveat: I have never played a PLO tourney.

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:44 PM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

All Other (Limit) Poker

PLO MTT discussion

Play for FREE and practice your game at...