PLO, let's talk about PF.

I'd be interested to hear everyone's PF thoughts concerning PLO.

Myself I typically always raise if I'm first to open a pot, and I tend to limp behind more often that I isolate other limpers, especially if I feel the button is too loose to fold PF and I don't want to bloat a pot OOP.

However, I'd like to talk about hands.

We all know the sayings like "try to have at least 4 good Hold'em hands" but here are a few questions, I only play 6-max, but ppl who play FR are more than welcome to chime in.

Assume all eff. stacks are 75bb+

Obviously you can tell me your play, but I'd like to hear reasoning too, I'll chime in after I feel like the thread has enough responses.

UTG or MP
1. You are dealt JJ72 no suits, your play?
2. You are dealt 5678 one suit, your play?
3. You are dealt 679T double suited, your play?

CO
1. Folded to you holding 5588 one suit, your play?
2. UTG limps, you hold 5678 no suits, your play?
3. UTG raises, MP calls, you have AKJ9 double suited, your play?

BTN
1. Folds to CO who raises pot, you hold 89JQ one suit, your play?
2. UTG/MP/CO limp, you hold QQ74 no suits, your play?
3. UTG and MP limp, CO raises pot, you hold AJT6 double suited, your play?

SB or BB
1. 3 limps, you hold AAJ3 no suits, your play?
2. 2 limps, you hold A247 nut suited, your play?
3. UTG raises, MP calls, you hold A876 nut suited, your play?
4. CO limps, you hold KQJT double suited, your play?
5. UTG limps, MP raises, BTN calls, you hold ATT4 nut suited, your play?

Miscellaneous questions:

Which would you rather call a raise with OOP:

#1
AKJT one suit
--or--
6789 one suit

#2
QQ87 no suits
--or--
T987 one suit

#3
KK73 one suit
--or--
4567 double suited

First of all: Omaha is postflop game and no one can argue on that. Unlike holdem where one hand can seriously dominate other, in omaha it's more like "any hand vs any other hand PF is more or less a flip" - I have no doubts you know that already, just make sure to not forget

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

We all know the sayings like "try to have at least 4 good Hold'em hands" ...

3 will do in position, say you have JsTsT3 - I would muck it UTG, but happily play from CO, BN, even call a raise.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

UTG or MP
1. You are dealt JJ72 no suits, your play?
2. You are dealt 5678 one suit, your play?
3. You are dealt 679T double suited, your play?

Snap fold all
1. Trash! Even if you hit your set, you're esentially praying it to hold up by the end. I would fold this even from BN.
2. In his inaugural video at Stoxpoker, Robert 'Mr.Omaha' Williamson III (WSOP bracelet) said that low cards are 'completely unplayable from all postions'. Now, this hand is a little more than 'low cards' but still (even taking into account it's conectedness and s00tedness) no brainer fold from EPs.
3. Iffy hand, even from BN.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

CO
1. Folded to you holding 5588 one suit, your play?
2. UTG limps, you hold 5678 no suits, your play?
3. UTG raises, MP calls, you have AKJ9 double suited, your play?

Now we're entering the 'it depends' zone
1. If BN and blinds are tight I'd probably steal with this, but I will never be happy even with set ...
2. Limp on passive table / Fold if aggro-s are behind - two of us limpers means the aggro-s behind will have the opportunity to pot it just strong enough that we can't call. Especialy with no flush redraw. Small cards...
3. Asuming UTG is not crazy I'll give him respect and just call and see the flop ...
3a. with the extra benefit of inviting the blinds, thus putting myself in position to play 'nutty' drawing hand in multiway pot IP
3b. avoiding puting myself into that UGLY '2nd nut' spot if I face a 4bet (UTG is raising, right!)

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

BTN
1. Folds to CO who raises pot, you hold 89JQ one suit, your play?
2. UTG/MP/CO limp, you hold QQ74 no suits, your play?
3. UTG and MP limp, CO raises pot, you hold AJT6 double suited, your play?

1. I dunno, I hate that middle (T in this case) gaps in general, probably call ... if it were QJT8 and UTG had 'history' I would raise.
2. Since the limpers built the pot a little and given postion - Raise pot and hope I get one or no callers.
3. Since it's 3+dangler => just call, sometimes(less often) raise depending on reads ...

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

SB or BB
1. 3 limps, you hold AAJ3 no suits, your play?
2. 2 limps, you hold A247 nut suited, your play?
3. UTG raises, MP calls, you hold A876 nut suited, your play?
4. CO limps, you hold KQJT double suited, your play?
5. UTG limps, MP raises, BTN calls, you hold ATT4 nut suited, your play?

1. Aces? RAISE! Almost always cbet and then insta turn myself into a nit depending on how many callers etc.
2. SB:fold, BB:check, not much to say here
3. Fold. If flush draw is my only nut potential and I'm OOP I'm done with the hand
4. RAIZZZZZZ!!!!! With a smile! Think about it: what CO limp means (unless we've seen him being trappy)? Probably something like ...
4a. aforementioned 8855 chesee - he'll miss 3/4+ of the time
4b. something from the middle pack like JTxx => if we connect with flop, he will connect as well and we are holding the 'nut' side of the stick ....

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Miscellaneous questions:

Which would you rather call a raise with OOP:

#1
AKJT one suit
--or--
6789 one suit

#2
QQ87 no suits
--or--
T987 one suit

#3
KK73 one suit
--or--
4567 double suited

1# AKJT (although I would sometimes raise as well, not just call). The problem with 9876 is that it's just one step too small to expect raiser stacking off - not much implied odds here.

2# T987. This is the low end hand of the group called 'ace crackers', it has much more potential than bare QQw/e and if you hit a wrap you are in excelent shape against most legitimate raising hands and it's easy to let go if you miss.

3# KKxx and it's not even close. 7654ss screams "2nd nut and 2nd nut".
And "2nd nut" in omaha means two things:
1) you never get paid off
2) you pay dearly

In the end I'd just like to note that I'm small stakes player with limited (but better than average) PLO experience so take ^^^^ with a grain of salt.

UTG:
1) fold, we need a J on the flop, and aren't garunteed to get action if we get one
2) raise, solid hand, easy to play post. May min-raise based on stakes/table dynamics
3) min-raise or limp behind, also a solid post flop hand

CO
1) raise 3bb, unless the blinds call waaaay to much. May fold if BTN is agressive and tricky
2) raise, either min, 2.5x or 3x. Prob depends on how likely I feel blinds call, limper calls (i.e. if I'm going 4 way I'm min-raising, HU I'm making it 3bb, so same starting pot)
3) likely call, a 3bet gets out of control (and I never noticed microstakes players open/fold often enough from EP)

I'm tired of thinking right now, but I completely disagree with sheetah's "low cards are completely unplayable from all positions". 5678 has sooooo much potential and I'll need a good reason to fold (based off action) to not see a flop.

OK I just started playing so these may be iffy

EP
1) I fold
2 & 3) I play, I cannot figure out whether limp/min raise/raise is better

CO

1) I fold, I seem to be making most of my money against people playing small pairs.
2) snap call
3) I call although this will lead into a question I have

BTN

I have been trying to play really tight except for BU

1) call
2) I have not seen people folding to raises so I would just go along
3) call

blinds

I call everywhere except the A247 which I fold. I start raising bad AAs OOP again but so far it has not seemed good so I stopped

MIsc

I prefer the run downs over the pairs, no idea on AKJT/9876

Originally Posted by Sheetah

First of all: Omaha is postflop game and no one can argue on that.

I can argue with it. Sure postflop makes up the majority of the game but it can be these PF decisions while seemingly trivial that allow players to avoid truly difficult spots.

Of course post flop is extremely important, and we're going to get to that, but for now we need a solid foundation, so we're going to start with PF first.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

... I completely disagree with sheetah's "low cards are completely unplayable from all positions". 5678 has sooooo much potential and I'll need a good reason to fold (based off action) to not see a flop.

I did say that ...

Originally Posted by Sheetah

... this hand is a little more than 'low cards' ... but ... EP.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

UTG or MP
1. You are dealt JJ72 no suits, your play? Fold
2. You are dealt 5678 one suit, your play? Fold or limp behind UTG limp
3. You are dealt 679T double suited, your play? Fold or limp behind UTG limp

CO
1. Folded to you holding 5588 one suit, your play? Raise
2. UTG limps, you hold 5678 no suits, your play? Limp behind
3. UTG raises, MP calls, you have AKJ9 double suited, your play? Call 90% 3bet 10%

BTN
1. Folds to CO who raises pot, you hold 89JQ one suit, your play? Call 90% 3bet 10%
2. UTG/MP/CO limp, you hold QQ74 no suits, your play? Limp behind
3. UTG and MP limp, CO raises pot, you hold AJT6 double suited, your play? Call

SB or BB
1. 3 limps, you hold AAJ3 no suits, your play? Complete the SB
2. 2 limps, you hold A247 nut suited, your play? Fold
3. UTG raises, MP calls, you hold A876 nut suited, your play? Call
4. CO limps, you hold KQJT double suited, your play? Complete SB
5. UTG limps, MP raises, BTN calls, you hold ATT4 nut suited, your play? Call 75% Fold 25%

Miscellaneous questions:

Which would you rather call a raise with OOP:

#1
AKJT one suit
--or--
6789 one suit

#2
QQ87 no suits
--or--
T987 one suit

#3
KK73 one suit
--or--
4567 double suited

Basically my PF strategy focuses on pot-control and positional awareness. I try to remain as tight as I can OOP and play as many pots as I can in position. The one thing you may notice is that I just complete AAJ3 no suits in the SB or check it out of the BB. In a game where we're rarely playing big pots with one pair it seems counterproductive to build a big pot in the worst position possible with a hand that will rarely make better than a one-pair hand postflop.

I am seeing why all the books say not to re raise aces with > PSB behind, but what are you guys re raising with? It seems like there must be some hands that work really well when everyone thinks you have AA

Also with a playable hand when folded to what do you consider to decide on limping/min raising/potting? What about with limpers?

Originally Posted by drmcboy

I am seeing why all the books say not to re raise aces with > PSB behind, but what are you guys re raising with? It seems like there must be some hands that work really well when everyone thinks you have AA

Also with a playable hand when folded to what do you consider to decide on limping/min raising/potting? What about with limpers?

Re raise all good AA's with at least one suit. Re-raise good run downs like 25% of the time? 3 bet double pairs with at least one suit like 25% of the time? Re raise all double suited run downs and one gappers as long as the gap isn't at the top.

Then again not repotting these hands isn't awful either. Since nuts over second-3rd nuts is where you make the money.

I don't 3 bet this much because I play 50 plo and people are stacking off lite no matter if you 3 bet or not.

In general I like to 3bet hands tha hit boards that appear to suck for AAxx.

Basically against players who think you're only 3betting AAxx when the flop comes 678 they can generally put a lot of pressure on your hand which is why it's important to be able to 3bet more than just AAxx.

I hate to talk about stats but I just uploaded my last 6,000 hands (this month's PLO hands) and I've been running 37/17 PF. Anyone else have any other numbers?

I try to limit my cold-calling OOP to a minimum but I do flat on the button a ton. Also, I never open-limp UTG/UTG+1.

25/5 first 5k hands evar

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...nutty+holdings

interesting post

cliff notes:

nutty - As5s4h6d or sooted ace with off pair
chewy- 9hThJsQs

Summing up, to facilitate profitable opportunities later in the hand, from early position I fold bad and medium chewy hands and mash the pot button with good chewy hands (connected and/or suited pairs JJ or lower, suited connected middle and low cards), minraise both good and medium nutty hands (any suited ace with 3 connecting cards, any suited ace with a pair, unsuited QQ-AAxx). Fold bad nutty hands in early position (e.g. AsKs4h5d). Some hands are both nutty and chewy (As6s6h7h). Use these to randomize, opening 50-50 min and pot.

since most people seem to just never raise I doubt they'll pick up pattern

From Slotboom, he is talking about 10/20 full ring

These are VPIP

Loose - 33%+

Very Loose - 44+

Tight - <= 18%

Very tight <= 10%, he says these people can only beat horrible players

Winning players - > 18 %, usually 24-36%

He feels unless you buy in short you cannot beat the game running < 16%



PFR >10% is aggressive

PFR >20% is a maniac, his targets for short stacking

PFR < 3% Passive, can't win

Winners (presumably deep stacked although he does not say) - 6 to 12 %

Re-reading SSII's PLO section I was surprised when I came across the PF section saying never to raise UTG. Either limp or fold.

Theoretically I can understand it, why raise UTG and build a big pot OOP? However, we're generally playing a tighter range that we don't mind playing a big pot.

I thought I would bump this since I have more hands now.

I am 28/8 over all, closer to 30/9 the past month

I have more or less stopped open limping in 6 max, which is my main game. The big difference is rough pair hands like QQ83, if I am not comfy at the table raising I'll just fold.

Also I was limping some 3 card hands like AKTx with a suit which I now think is bad play OOP. Again I may raise these at some tables, but most of the medium pots I was losing started off limp/call raise.

You hardly ever get three bet so raising doesn't take you off many hands. Plus in EP you're probably just raising hands that can stand a re raise like nice rundown/l gaps or hands you can happily fold like bad KKxx types.


When I play FR I will open limp the first couple positions. There tend to be more short stacks usually so raising is riskier. Also build the pot is not as important vs 6 max.

Compared to when I started I more often raise half stack or more limpers with any hand I was limping anyway although it is table dependent. I usually stick with 3x because the idea is more to build a pot with position and a good hand vs isolation. IMO most people are going to call 3x or 5x with the same hands. Also it's easier to call three bets when we open smaller.

I decided last month to 3 bet from the CO or BU with decent AAxx - One suit plus a connect, two connectors, or double paired. Along with any 4 card run down, or 1-2 gap on bottom. I'll also 3 bet a hand like 99TJ. Or a hand with a couple gaps (not on top) if it's double suited. However, this doesn't happen much. I'll also 3 bet BB vs SB with all those hands and sometimes BB vs BU.

How aggro are you playing on the button and co? I would think you could get your vpip and pfr closer together at 6 max. Again I'm not sure that it would be any better though.

Whats the general consensus behind isolating limpers? As profitable to do as Holdem?

The thing to keep in mind with some of these hands is that when you 3 bet you want to have hands that are premium hand structures or raise for that matter, for instance in the AKJ9ds hand I am pretty much 3 betting always for several reasons, it makes it look like I have aces, and bet tons of super dry boards and low paired boards and get more folds from weak rundowns since "they put me on AAxx". The same goes for QJ98ss, given your Q or J is suited, if you bet and get called by lets say T975, JT97 and the flop comes T8x with your flush draw, you are absolutely crushing them and will get the money in as a huge favorite.

Another thing to keep in mind is the power of the NFD, in 3 bet pots, people will call with tons of low-mid rundowns and when you flop the NFD with a pair or overpair you are a huge favorite over a smaller flush draw with a wrap so 3 betting hands like AJT9ss is good, since you are crushing any JT9x hand that will hit the flop.

given this, against a player that raises more than AA we should be 3 betting very wide IP

KQJT-T987ss
KQT9ss-T976ss
KQJ9ss-T986ss

most broadways combos suited to the A or ds

AKQJ
AKQT
AKQ9
AKJT
AKJ9ss speculative since QTx is the only flop we can hit a flop
AKT9ss speculative since QJx is the only flop we can hit a wrap
AQJT
AQJ9
AQT9

other pair combos like JJT9ss is good too but are more speculative


UTG

1. fold
2. raise 3x
3. raise 3x

CO
1. pot or raise 3x
2. fold
3. 3 bet depending on stack sizes and UTG, call

BTN
1. 3 bet pot almost always
2. raise or call depending on blinds/limper
3. 3 bet depending on player and blinds, 50/50 for call or 3 bet

SB.
1. call always, never raise this one way hand, you shoudl get paid on an A high flop even more if you had raised pf
2. call sometimes, usually just a fold, NFD is pretty meh oop and you won't get paid much, you want a 356 flop with your NFD to continue usually
3. same as the other depends, always call sometimes 3 bet depending on the UTG's raising tendencies
4. raise everytime, this is the nuts pf as far as hand values goes
5. sometimes call, sometimes fold, its a solid hand but your position is terrible and you will have to c/f a lot of flops being MW

Misc

1. both are great, AKJT suited to the A is almost always a 3 bet for the sheer fact that it can flop so well and people will put you on aces
2. only T987 and I always almost 3 bet this
3. KK73 is fine to set mine/play poker, 4567 is a great hand but needs a decent flop, this hand is kinda wierd

I run at around 25/17 but I still call way too much when I should be 3 betting, however most of my opponents are too stupid to raise anything but AA and makes 3 betting really unprofitable.

Agree with davis13 on pretty much everything.