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PLO, lets talk about continuation-betting

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bigspenda73

08-12-2008, 04:28 PM Post subject: PLO, lets talk about continuation-betting

#1 (permalink)

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bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

Something I seem to struggle with, or at the very least am confused by is continuation betting in PLO.

There are obvious spots where we flop 2pr or better or spots where we flop total air and the board is somewhat dry. However, there are a lot of middling flops that depending on position, stack-sizes, and opponent types can be fairly difficult spots.

Spot 1, the naked flush draw

Eff. stacks 130bb's

Hero opens :Ad: :Qd:

UTG+1 to 3.5bbs, BTN calls, BB calls.

Flop (11bb) :Jd:

BB checks, Hero....?

Spot 2, the unimproved AAxx KKxx
Eff. stacks 95bb's
Hero opens :Ac: :As:

in the CO to 3bbs, SB calls, BB calls

Flop 1
Flop (9bbs) :Th:

2 checks, Hero?

Flop 2
Flop (9bbs): :Th:

2 checks, Hero?

Flop 3
Flop (9bbs):

Spot 3, strong draw deep
180bb's effective

UTG limps, Hero raises :Ac: :Qd: :Qc: :Td: UTG+1 to 4bbs, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop (12bb's): :Kd: :Jc:

Hero (bet/call, check/call, bet/3bet, bet/fold)

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drmcboy

08-12-2008, 05:26 PM

#2 (permalink)

DrButtInski
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Spot 1) I cannot figure this out either, because you hate to call a re raise or 3 bet and implied odds suck against anyone reasonable. I have been betting here mostly but I'm not sure it's good. Good news is we should have decent FE

Spot 2

Flop 1 - I am cool bet folding here

Flop 2 - I check, I would lead with the Ah. Just too many hands that can call here I think

Flop 3 - I am cool bet folding here

Spot 3 - I bet/3bet without a solid tight read, I see people overplaying two pair or dominated draws a lot on these boards

I will try and post a few of my own after next session

TLR

08-13-2008, 07:38 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Spot 1 - I would c-bet it vs one opponent but not vs two

Spot 2 - I would bet the first one, I would check the 2nd, I would bet the 3rd

Spot 3 - Bet, the rest depends on the action,

dsaxton

08-13-2008, 09:04 AM

#4 (permalink)

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I often check behind one pair hands, but will also occasionally bet them. I also may check behind two pair or a set on a very coordinated board. I'll usually check behind my weak draws, and on occasion my big draws, although usually I like to bet / get all-in (assuming standard 100 BB stack sizes and a reasonably aggressive opponent) with these. I almost always continuation bet my very strong hands like top set, flopped nut straights, etc. I'll also usually bet my complete misses.

It largely depends on the nature of the board, how many players are in the pot, how I've been playing, how my opponents have been playing, etc., but overall, I'm probably more passive postflop after raising preflop in pot limit omaha than I am in no limit holdem. Although honestly, it's hard to say exactly since I haven't been playing this game, and I didn't play a ton when I did.

bigspenda73

08-13-2008, 09:57 AM

#5 (permalink)

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In the 3rd example how are we proceeding against a PS-raise on the flop 180bb deep and OOP against UTG. I'd assume if BB c/r's we can float in position.

drmcboy

08-13-2008, 06:25 PM

#6 (permalink)

DrButtInski
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1)
PokerStars Game #19588248572: Omaha Pot Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/08/13 - 13:52:02 (ET)
Table 'Suevia V' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: cluelessiam ($487.60 in chips)
Seat 2: Nosher ($146.95 in chips)
Seat 3: cuthbertt ($191 in chips)
Seat 4: HB8073 ($124.35 in chips)
Seat 5: Reimertz ($152.35 in chips)
Seat 6: neruos ($345.25 in chips)
HB8073: posts small blind $1
Reimertz: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cuthbertt [7s Kd 6s Td]
neruos: folds
cluelessiam: folds
neruos leaves the table
Nosher: folds
cuthbertt: raises $5 to $7
HB8073: folds
Reimertz: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [As Tc 5h]
Reimertz: checks
cuthbertt:

2)

PokerStars Game #19588456993: Omaha Pot Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/08/13 - 14:00:49 (ET)
Table 'Suevia V' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: cluelessiam ($532.70 in chips)
Seat 2: Nosher ($118.85 in chips)
Seat 3: cuthbertt ($202.15 in chips)
Seat 4: HB8073 ($97.35 in chips)
Seat 5: Reimertz ($179.55 in chips)
HB8073: posts small blind $1
Reimertz: posts big blind $2
CHEMOUS: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cuthbertt [7s Qc Jc 5s]
cluelessiam: folds
Nosher: folds
cuthbertt: raises $5 to $7
HB8073: calls $6
Reimertz: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [9d 4c 8c]
HB8073: checks
Reimertz: checks
cuthbertt:

3)

PokerStars Game #19589618863: Omaha Pot Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/08/13 - 14:51:00 (ET)
Table 'Austrasia' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: cuthbertt ($199.75 in chips)
Seat 2: pazzu1 ($277.50 in chips)
Seat 3: Hulk07 ($158.60 in chips)
Seat 5: xX-Asian-Xx ($216.20 in chips)
Hulk07: posts small blind $1
xX-Asian-Xx: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cuthbertt [Td Ac 9s 9d]
cuthbertt: raises $5 to $7
pazzu1: folds
Hulk07: calls $6
xX-Asian-Xx: folds
*** FLOP *** [Kc 2h 8h]
Hulk07: checks
cuthbertt:

4) Note - just took big pot off this guy, he raised pre then c/c two PSBs with AJK on QTT board, I had KTJ9, river J he called about HPS

PokerStars Game #19589676186: Omaha Pot Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/08/13 - 14:53:23 (ET)
Table 'Arnica II' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: chuiwon ($98 in chips)
Seat 2: DERJY ($38 in chips)
Seat 3: KarmaTIll ($444.15 in chips)
Seat 4: mikemall976 ($287 in chips)
Seat 5: cuthbertt ($409.25 in chips)
pena1995 was removed from the table for failing to post
chuiwon: posts small blind $1
DERJY: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cuthbertt [Qs Qh Ah Ac]
KarmaTIll: folds
mikemall976: calls $2
cuthbertt: raises $7 to $9
chuiwon: folds
DERJY: folds
mikemall976: calls $7
*** FLOP *** [7s 5h 9s]
mikemall976: checks
cuthbertt:

5) TheKid3901 is playing like every pot and pretty much always checks OOP, but has done some CRing.

POKERSTARS GAME #19590285375: OMAHA POT LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/08/13 - 15:18:12 (ET)
Table 'Austrasia' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: cuthbertt ($333.75 in chips)
Seat 3: michanmark ($49.35 in chips)
Seat 4: TheKid3901 ($254.55 in chips)
Seat 6: WinterMag ($40 in chips)
james129 will be allowed to play after the button
michanmark: posts small blind $1
TheKid3901: posts big blind $2
longdong1972: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cuthbertt [7s Th Ah Ad]
WinterMag: folds
cuthbertt: raises $5 to $7
michanmark: folds
TheKid3901: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [Ts 5d 6s]
TheKid3901: checks
cuthbertt:

6)
POKERSTARS GAME #19588862186: OMAHA POT LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/08/13 - 14:18:09 (ET)
Table 'Loreley III' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: jmp11 ($194 in chips)
Seat 2: xX-Asian-Xx ($200 in chips)
Seat 3: kingjouri ($77 in chips)
Seat 4: cuthbertt ($230.90 in chips)
Seat 5: Rudi1965 ($139.05 in chips)
Seat 6: durango69 ($241.25 in chips)
Rudi1965: posts small blind $1
durango69: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cuthbertt [9h 7c 6s 6d]
jmp11: folds
xX-Asian-Xx: folds
kingjouri: folds
cuthbertt: raises $5 to $7
Rudi1965: calls $6
durango69: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [Qd Qc As]
Rudi1965: checks
durango69: checks
cuthbertt:

7) I thought this was really awkward, what do I do if I get three bet?

POKERSTARS GAME #19590499135: OMAHA POT LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/08/13 - 15:26:36 (ET)
Table 'Austrasia' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: cuthbertt ($316.55 in chips)
Seat 2: james129 ($60.20 in chips)
Seat 3: michanmark ($84.60 in chips)
Seat 4: TheKid3901 ($236.35 in chips)
Seat 6: WinterMag ($24 in chips)
michanmark: posts small blind $1
TheKid3901: posts big blind $2
longdong1972: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cuthbertt [Kc Ah As 6d]
WinterMag: folds
cuthbertt: raises $5 to $7
james129: calls $7
michanmark: folds
TheKid3901: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [Tc Ac Kd]
TheKid3901: checks
cuthbertt:

{8 was a repeat of 2 yo--spenda}

bigspenda73

08-13-2008, 11:56 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

I tried cbetting a lot more today than I used to, even with weakish one pair hands and def. all of my air on the majority of flop textures. I was actually surprised at the amount of folds I got and it's quite easy to b/f.

One bad spot where I cbet AdAsh7d8s on a Jd9d9c flop and got c/r'ed and blown off my hand (maybe I'm being results oriented b/c an Ace spiked on the turn and I was in position) but other than that I never seemed to get raised in spots where I'd have a tough decision.

Onto your hands:

1. I cbet this hand a lot, but you might have to fire two shells if a broadway card doesnt hit the turn as a hand like AQJx could certainly be in villains range. I'm not quite sure what cbetting accomplishes besides villain fold a bad Axxx hand or something like QQxx. You could probably check the flop and still represent a bettable hand on the turn though

2. I think this is a spot where I check too much. A "seemingly" good draw, however, only an offsuit Ten is to the nuts. Getting c/r'ed stinks because it could easily be by a bigger wrap or FD which could put us in some weird turn spots.

3. I cbet this flop. It's a spot where better hands will certainly fold as a naked top pair hands just don't seem to call with out some additional equity. Also, TT/JJ/QQ will give up here, I see a lot of people calling out of the blinds to top-set mine. Getting c/r'ed here is fine as we really have no equity against a c/r'ing range anyways.

4. Glad you posted this hand, because I also play nitty mcnitterson here and check. I'd really like to have the As to cbet this flop, and I'd be much more confident in a c/r being a made hand. I think if I have the nut flush draw card I'd cbet.

5. Cbet this one 100% and expect him to c/c a lot. Turn play depends on the card. I'm bet/folding the flop if that's not obvious

6. This is omahahaha at it's finest, I always think these paired boards are great for bluffing/raising/leading but people seem to have it a lot more than the math would indicate. I know I sound like some noob saying that but people just seem to show up with it a lot here. I, however, do cbet into solid players who will snap fold Axxx w/o thinking twice.

7. If there wasn't a flush draw on the board I could see your case for checking however I'd like to charge naked low clubs or like a Queen high flush draw that has a broadway gutterball. I'm definitely calling a c/r and then obv value-betting a board pair or bluffing on a club since we hold the nut-club.

drmcboy

08-14-2008, 02:21 AM

#8 (permalink)

DrButtInski
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Posts: 9,601

cool, i think we agreed except for 3, which looking back seemed like the best spot that I did not c-bet.

In general I'm starting to think it's bad OOP without a hand but assuming we are IP I think we can get close to HE frequency

Are you ever not potting it? Today on paired boards I tried out some less than PSBs

dsaxton

08-14-2008, 06:52 AM

#9 (permalink)

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drmcboy,

Hand 1: I think checking and betting are both acceptable. I prefer to check behind with hands that can call a turn bet, though. I'm not sure if this qualifies against most players.

Hand 2: I would probably jam this flop.

Hand 3: I think betting is good here. The board is not very coordinated and you stand a good chance of picking up the pot with the best hand. Denying free cards to hands like 8-x-x-x or 3-4 overcards has a lot of value.

Hand 4: Betting seems marginal here. There's a possible straight, and multiple draws to straights or flushes when you just have a dry pair. I'd just keep the pot small and consider calling one bet.

Hand 5: Betting is good, but I think checking for pot control and deception is also reasonable.

Hand 6: I give up on the flop almost always.

Hand 7: A line I would sometimes use is bet the flop, check behind on the turn, and then bet the river when checked to if the board doesn't fall too poorly for my hand. If I fill up I'm obviously playing a big pot. However, it does suck to get raised, and everyone expects you to bet here with top set, so there is some merit to checking behind. However, I think it's very bad for metagame if you end up having to just show down top set here, since it creates the impression you're playing a super nitty style. I think having the image of being somewhat of a gambler in pot limit omaha is best, not someone who is waiting around for the nuts.

bigspenda73

08-14-2008, 01:13 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

Quote:

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Are you ever not potting it? Today on paired boards I tried out some less than PSBs

I rarely bet pot PF or post-flop

bigspenda73

08-16-2008, 07:45 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Location: Pwnsylvania

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Over 7500 hands my cbetting % at 6max is 33%. I'm not sure if this is high or low.

Basically I've been doing two things when determining cbets:

1. Cbetting players who like to fold to 2nd and 3rd barrels a lot
--This give the added value of making a bit more money from their flop call. I'll pick either scary turn cards or total blanks to fire again, depending on their tendencies. People don't tend to check/call 3 streets on draw-heavy boards with hands that can see a showdown (i.e. like bottom 2 pr) so I feel like if I barrel a total brick and get called I can fire a 3rd shell and get a lot of folds. I tend to do this a lot, would like to hear thoughts on it.

2. Boards that people can only fastplay with a very small/polarized range.
--This one probably seems simple but basically if I have a medium-strength hand on a board texture where it has pretty poor equity against a raise I'm not going to cbet. This usually means wetter boards to I do risk a free card however I' don't get blown off potentially the best hand and I get to see one more card which will drastically affect our opponent's equity.

drmcboy

08-16-2008, 09:29 PM

#12 (permalink)

DrButtInski
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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Are you ever not potting it? Today on paired boards I tried out some less than PSBs

I rarely bet pot PF or post-flop

I want to go back to this - both Ciaffone and Hwang say to pot flop and turn unless board pairs or there is a three flush. I have experimented both ways and I like betting less than pot too, but I am not sure if it's holdem thinking?

drmcboy

08-16-2008, 09:32 PM

#13 (permalink)

DrButtInski
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I am a PT donk, where is my cbet %

bigspenda73

08-17-2008, 12:21 AM

#14 (permalink)

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On the general tab page there is a button that says "details" or "more detail" or something. It will bring up a screen that has your action after you raised PF. The bet% is your cbet %.

drmcboy

08-17-2008, 12:36 AM

#15 (permalink)

DrButtInski
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18%

wow that seems low

bigspenda73

08-17-2008, 12:44 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Well consider this, if you're doing the majority of raising in position you may be getting led into a lot as well, which would reduce that bet %.

Anyways, I'm sure there is an exact cbet% stat somewhere, just don't know where.

dranger7070

08-28-2010, 07:31 PM

#17 (permalink)

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dranger7070 has a little shameless behaviour in the past

Curious about reasons for betting less than pot PF and on flop/turn?

drmcboy

08-28-2010, 07:44 PM

#18 (permalink)

DrButtInski
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for me flop and turn are all texture or player specific, default on the QT6 two tone is pot although I still don't do exactly pot.

pre flop I vary 3 bet size some based on stacks and position but tbh I'm too lazy to just not 3x everything when I am opening + one per limp usually.

davis13

09-14-2010, 12:49 PM

#19 (permalink)

One Pair

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

UTG+1 to 3.5bbs, BTN calls, BB calls.

Flop (11bb) :Jd:

BB checks, Hero....?

Spot 2, the unimproved AAxx KKxx
Eff. stacks 95bb's
Hero opens :Ac: :As:

in the CO to 3bbs, SB calls, BB calls

Flop 1
Flop (9bbs) :Th:

2 checks, Hero?

Flop 2
Flop (9bbs): :Th:

2 checks, Hero?

Flop 3
Flop (9bbs):

Spot 3, strong draw deep
180bb's effective

UTG limps, Hero raises :Ac: :Qd: :Qc: :Td: UTG+1 to 4bbs, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop (12bb's): :Kd: :Jc:

Hero (bet/call, check/call, bet/3bet, bet/fold)

hand 1-very easy c-bet/call a raise against most players, you rarely get raised by a worse hand and with position there are so many turns that suck for his made hand that he c/red, any 7,T,8,Q,K, diamond.

hand 2-I rarely c-bet this texture, too many middling hands have hit this board but if the turn is a brick, I would call a decent amount of leads and bet when checked to, to pay for the infinite straight draws on this board.

hand 3-same thing but even worse, a pretty easy check back and be done with the hand, horrible board to c-bet.

hand 4-completely dependent on opponent but default is a 2/3 c-bet.

hand 5- anything but bet/call is pretty silly unless its purely for value against his range, this hand is strong but not having the NFD to go with your wrap really hurts your equity if you do get in the money against his range.

I c-bet about 80% of flops, most flops you can just bet/fold since Omaha is about not allowing your opponents to realize their equity so something like KKQT on a A46r or even A46tt board is a pretty easy c-bet, you would love a naked ace to fold, you can be called by worse, and a random 4/6 with a gutter, has at least 35% equity which will usually fold unless they are very loose and passive.

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