www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

PLO in General

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

Galapogos

02-06-2007, 12:01 AM Post subject: PLO in General

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: The Loser's Lounge

Posts: 2,322

Getting bored of the usual poker. So I dipped in the PLO pool and I'm a likin'. Making what seems to be easy money at 50NL thus far. Not sure if I'm riding a good wave yet as it has only been a couple days with two tables of it open.

Just a couple really general questions. What is the worst kind of hand you see yourself going all-in with preflop. I got all-in with AsAc5s6c earlier and that's all I have dared to yet, too tight?

I got all-in with bottom set on a HU flop and felt dirty about it. I won but is this normally a bad idea? Flop was AQ8 rainbow raiser was in SB. Against a decent player this is death right?

And what's an example of the worst hand you raise preflop MP?

All these are assuming tables are VERY loose passive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

KoRnholio

02-06-2007, 12:52 AM Post subject: Re: PLO in General

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Just a couple really general questions. What is the worst kind of hand you see yourself going all-in with preflop. I got all-in with AsAc5s6c earlier and that's all I have dared to yet, too tight?

Very read and stack-size dependant. If you can get all in (or over half your stack in) with AAxx, then do it petty much no matter what.

I will often take a hand like 5678 (with one or two suits) or something like 9TJK double suited all in preflop against two people who likely have hands like AAxx and KKxx (or the other AAxx). The hands to not gamble with are unsuited or mid pair hands which have poor equity in multiway pots.

Quote:

I got all-in with bottom set on a HU flop and felt dirty about it. I won but is this normally a bad idea? Flop was AQ8 rainbow raiser was in SB. Against a decent player this is death right?

Bottom set is a very hand hand to play with deep stacks. With 80BB+ stacks a decent/passive player will only get all in with you with AA/QQ or possibly a big draw like 9TJK on that AQ8 rainbow board. Take note of the donks who stack off with two pair (or worse) regularily.

Quote:

And what's an example of the worst hand you raise preflop MP?

I've been playing more aggressive preflop these days, so now in a standard passive game I will often open raise any of the following hands in MP:

5789
9TJJ
A876 (suited ace)
QQxx (where the x's aren't total trash like 72o)
any 4 cards 9 and up
xxyy (2 pairs where each is 66+, bottom sets are awful in deep stack PLO)

PLO is a fun game (and my bread and butter now that full ring LHE is a rockfest everywhere) but there can be some crazy variance. Be prepared to go on some sick (both good and bad) runs

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Galapogos

02-06-2007, 02:33 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: The Loser's Lounge

Posts: 2,322

Thanks Kornholio. Here's another quick question I have on a deep hand I played. Sorry I have no hand history, they still haven't brought that option back post Pokerroom upgrade. Here it as as best I can remember it:

50NL
4 handed
Villian $180, I cover.

I am dealt [KC,JC,TH,TD]

Folds up to me. I raise pot on the button. SB folds, BB reraises to $5.75, I call.

Flop is [xC,xC,JH] (I'm using x's because all that matters here is that these are clubs)

Villian checks to me, I bet say $8.00, villian calls

Turn is [xC,xC,JH,xC]

Villian checks, I bet something, he raraises something, I call (sorry I really don't remember)

River is [xC,xC,JH,xC, blank]

Villian pushes, I have ~$110 to call with the second nuts.

Obvsiously he has an AA hand with his reraise from the BB as he has not done any reraising yet. It is very possible one is a club and so is any other random card in his hand.

Is folding the second best hand reasonable here?

He showed a pretty big bluff a few hands earlier and this makes me even more antsy as I usually assume this is setting up for something. But he is not a particularily skilled player (I actually got it all-in with him preflop when he had [JJxx] but he hasn't done anything remarkably donkish since then but he has also been getting some nice hands so it's hard for him to lose money. That bluff earlier is the only time I saw him push money into me so eagerly.

Those are my reads but I'd like to hear what I should do sans reads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

bigspenda73

02-06-2007, 02:37 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

I thought PLO was all about being able to fold 2nd nut type hands.

KoRnholio

02-06-2007, 04:10 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I thought PLO was all about being able to fold 2nd nut type hands.

Partially true. Depending on the hand action it's possible to get away from almost anything. I had a hand the other day (too lazy to dig up the hand history) that went like this:

preflop: many limpers, I am in MP with Acxcxx

Flop is Jc 9c xo
Early guy bets, I call, 2 calls behind me.

Turn is the Kc. Flop bettor checks, I bet the pot. 2 folds and villain minimum raises me.

River is a blank and he bets 1/3 of the pot (leaving about $15 in his stack). I know he has Tc Qc for the straight flush but I call anyways and lose.

The way the hand went down there was no way he was betting just a Q-high or worse flush.

As for your hand Galapogos, even if he has shown a big bluff before, this is often the nut flush. People hardly ever reraise preflop without AAxx. People also hardly ever check-raise the turn with something other than the nuts.

The only action he made that leads me to believe that he might not have AAxx with clubs is that he checked the flop. Assuming it was raggy at all (ie, it wasn't JT9 or something scary), the AA overpair and nut flush draw will bet this almost always after taking the lead preflop.

The 2nd nut flush can be tricky to play as well, and it might sound like 20-20 hindsite but after he announces AAxx preflop and then check-calls the 2 club flop, I check very often on the turn after the club hits to keep the pot small and not reopen the betting. That way the hand will unfold like this on the river:

- If he has the nut flush he bets and you call
- he might check-raise and then I will often release the hand (after making the initial 1/3-2/3 pot value bet)
- he may well bluff (or bet a 2 pair/set/straight hand, all the same really) after you check the turn, easy call
- he may bet a worse flush, you call

As played, it depends a lot on the size of his raises, but he has to be pretty out of line to make a big bluff on the turn like that when it's entirely possible you have the nuts or a high flush that will call.

Thinking back on it now, it looks a *lot* like he has AAxx with just a naked ace of clubs, but I can't see paying off his big turn and river bets just to find out, without a very, very good read. Checking the turn keeps the pot in control and looking up a river bluff/paying off his nuts is cheap.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Galapogos

02-06-2007, 05:42 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: The Loser's Lounge

Posts: 2,322

Thanks for taking the time Kornholio, those posts are really informative and helped a lot with all my basic beginner questions. Time to dig in deeper and get more of a feel for the rest of it I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

KoRnholio

02-06-2007, 05:07 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

No problem, PLO is my favorite game and I'm glad to see more discussion about it on here

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Miffed22001

02-10-2007, 03:32 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

No problem, PLO is my favorite game and I'm glad to see more discussion about it on here

QFT

The one thing running through all korn's posts is that pot control is important when your hand is very strong but still non-nut etc etc. IMO turn play is really really important in pl games like plo where you can get in awful situations making the wrong play

Irisheyes

02-12-2007, 07:24 AM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: over there

Posts: 3,708

Are there any really good resources for beginners out there? I can't seem to find anything. I mean resources as basic as starting hand requirements. I'm trying to learn but I have no clue what to do what-so-ever. Plz help.

KoRnholio

02-12-2007, 06:57 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

The best book out there for PLO is "Omaha Poker: The Action Game - 21st Century Editon" by Bob Ciaffone. He starts off with pretty basic ideas and builds on them well. There are some mini-quizzes in this book as well that are pretty helpful.

Rolf Slotboom (a Cardplayer writer, PLO and limit hold'em articles mostly) has a new book out but I really didn't find it all that useful even though he talks a great deal about internet games. He has an interesting short stack strategy, but unless you are in an aggressive game or a game with a maniac in it, it is worth it at all. Virtually all of the 200PLO and under games I have played are just too passive for it to work.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Fnord

02-12-2007, 09:14 PM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

PLO is a post-flop game (even more-so that hold'em)

Position
Pot Control
The Nuts and draws to The Nuts
Less bluffing more show'n'tell

I think the biggest mistake I see in the smaller games is people not building pots pre-flop with hands like J987 two suited or JJ55.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

KoRnholio

02-13-2007, 12:06 AM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

PLO is a post-flop game (even more-so that hold'em)

Position
Pot Control
The Nuts and draws to The Nuts
Less bluffing more show'n'tell

QFT.

Quote:

I think the biggest mistake I see in the smaller games is people not building pots pre-flop with hands like J987 two suited or JJ55.

Raising more than just AAxx and big pairs is important, but in smaller games J987 double suited is nothing to write home about. The gap is in a bad place, you'd much rather have 79TJ because if the flop comes to your liking (ie: 89x, 9Tx) the 2nd hand will have many more nut straight cards than the first hand.

Also, the flush value of middle cards can get you into more trouble than it's worth in games where 4-6 people are regularly coming along in raised pots. The biggest value of having a mediocre flush draw is that in combination with a straight draw or pair(s), it can give you such a monster draw that it's a favorite over a set or made straight (often with a freeroll).

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:44 PM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

All Other (Limit) Poker

PLO in General

Play for FREE and practice your game at...