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bigspenda73
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08-23-2008, 12:15 AM
Post subject: PLO AAxx on dry flops in raised pots
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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This situations tend to come up quite a bit. I am very comfortable b/f'ing or even c/f'ing unimproved aces (no fd or sd or set) on wet boards but what about facing aggression on drier flops?
A typical example, 3 limps, we make it 6.5BBs from the SB, 2 limpers call.
Hero: A A 6 5
Flop (20bbs) K 6 4
Hero bet 14bbs
What's the plan if called and:
1. 4c comes on the turn
2. 8d comes on the turn
3. Qs comes on the turn
Same flop, but say we're pot-raised by an unknwown
Same flop, now we're raised less than pot by an unknown
I'm usually b/f'ing these flops against solid TAGGs, even though it's difficult for them to have anything but wraps here or top set.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
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are we in or out of position?
if in id take a free card most likely, if out b/f seems ok.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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ooooops
Small Blind
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Also I don't agree with giving/taking the free card had we been in position, there are a lot of hands with decent equity against us that don't even know it and we're certainly a dog to the field.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Also I don't agree with giving/taking the free card had we been in position, there are a lot of hands with decent equity against us that don't even know it and we're certainly a dog to the field.
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Can see the point on the free card based on board texture
Its pretty blank and if we get raised its most likely a set.
If these games are still as bad as ever, we probably get a call from somone with an Akxx as well a lot i guess
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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I would raise smaller or limp unless you think this will get the pot heads up.
I would never b/c OOP with no read and I would give up after getting called (assuming pot stays 3way+). If he checks the turn behind maybe you can call a bet on a brick river.
I think your problems here are why I would rather just take a flop, you set up for a big pot win or small loss, here we just tend to win small and lose medium. I mean is a 6 a good card?
The fact the board is dry is kinda good but it's much easier for sets to slow play too, I'd rather their was a two flush out if we were IP so they have to come out of the woods.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
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Doc our hand is way too strong to limp, even in the SB
I'd limp AA62 or AAK9 one suit or AA56 no suits but we flop the nuts/nutdraw too much to be playing in such a small pot.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
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how often? (srs) How much less do we make even then since we're OOP? I did miss we were double suited but I've yet to figure out why flopping just the NFD, esp OOP, is so great unless everyone is horrible. What is your line if it comes T86 with your draw?
it seems like you're having an issue in these spots, I'm saying it's worth considering itmay be pre and you're making it about not know how to play post. There will be lots of clearly bad flops, if we can't even figure out how to play on medium to good flops why are we raising?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Where did I say I'm having issues?
It's a spot I see people misplay all the time
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
there will be lots of clearly bad flops, if we can't even figure out how to play on medium to good flops why are we raising?
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bad flops in PLO are a lot easier to play than bad flops in hold'em
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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chill dude, I'm trying to learn. Sorry I offended you. I often assume people posts spots that confuse them.
How about answering my questions?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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hard to ruffle my feathers doc
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
how often? (srs) How much less do we make even then since we're OOP? I did miss we were double suited but I've yet to figure out why flopping just the NFD, esp OOP, is so great unless everyone is horrible. What is your line if it comes T86 with your draw?
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Well a lot depends on stack sizes and opponent-types but basically having an overpair and NFD usually gives us enough equity to get money in on a non-straight board (so not T86 but maybe T83). Being OOP does not help.
Sometimes if I flop the NFD I might check, looking to either c/bomb or c/c or see the flop go check/check. Other times if the board is like K42 with my flush draw and I really don't have to fear 3 sets then I'll just b/3bet all in, knowing I'm flipping with 2pr and a slight dog to KKxx (math i think is 55/45 in his favorite with my gutterball). if the flop comes down 789 with my flush draw I might bet/fold or bet/call or check/call. A lot depends on how my opponents have played the bottom-end of a straight or a set on boards like these. If I feel I can bet and not get raised by less than the nuts I probably lead, otherwise I might check/call a less than PSB or call behind a flop flat-caller.
PLO is fun, there really are no standard lines, if the player to my immediate left bet and there were 2 callers I could call or even c/r with some nice dead money in the pot and my 30-50% equity.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
hard to ruffle my feathers doc
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Where did I say I'm having issues?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by could have
I'm posting this because I see people play bad in this spot
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You can call it what you like, it's needlessly confrontational.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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whateva feeeesh, that's all perspective
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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so how often do we flop the NFD in a good spot? you seem really certain we should raise and obv it isn't just when we flop a set because I would say we get a lot more action in an unraised pot with a set unless it's set over set. If it's set over set I don't think it will matter much if we raised pre.
OK, it looks like we're just over 10% to flop a FD, let's round to 10, so 20%, plus a set gives us ~35% flops we like, but a lot of those are going to be spooky in a 3-4 way pot. I dunno what to add in for the 56.
Most of your post seems read based, which is fine - certainly if I reads people will chase with the non nut draw I feel better. I'm still not sure we don't get more action there in a limped pot. 6 handed I've not sat at many tables where more than 1 opp would fit that decription
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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meh prolly the differences between 50/100 plo and 400plo are causing our disconnect here.
As I move through the levels I might have to rethink my strategy if I stop getting so much action from non-nut draws.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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yeah I could see that
unless it comes back door or with the ace on board I haven't made much with nut flushes, pretty much have to give one free card and hope they call/bluff the river
I was not spotting a lot of fish at 400 6 max so I was worried I was one, I am playing 400 full for now with some 200 6 max mixed in where I am amping up the aggression some IP
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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People are total nits postflop in my experience at 100PLO and above.
I have very few hands above 100PLO but all the videos I've watched at 200-1k PLO all the regs seem to play so nitty.
I make most of my money in non-showdown pots by reading player's lines and using my blockers to my advantage a lot.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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for sure everyone playing fast seems to be a holdem donk but they go broke quick and only play one table, I need to get better at hand reading to start beating the nits. Jeff Hwang never told me how rarely I'll flop the nuts with a redraw!
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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1. Analyze flop texture
2. Read opponent's action to determine if they have made hand or a draw
3. Analyze turn+river cards in relation to flop texture
4. Determine the correct action
Every time someone shows up with a hand you were not expecting take a note.
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chuckc3401
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 15
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You're playing for stacks in this game. Raising OOP you flip your hand over for the limpers to see. Unless you can raise and get most of your stack in preflop I think it's best to complete in the small blind here. Now you have missed the flop and the other people still in the pot know it. On the flop you now feel you have to bet oout to protect your hand building an even bigger pot and you have no real information on eveyone else's hand. If you limp out of the blinds and you then take a stab on the flop and get raised it is eaiser and cheaper to get away from this.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Hi Chuck,
you could/might be correct, however, I tend to raise a larger range of hands from the SB (not just AAxx), so while someone might make a play on me here, I could easily have a hand like 5678 or4567 and 6677
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Clar17y
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10-11-2008, 12:43 PM
Post subject: Re: PLO AAxx on dry flops in raised pots
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#24 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Getting coolered.
Posts: 142
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
This situations tend to come up quite a bit. I am very comfortable b/f'ing or even c/f'ing unimproved aces (no fd or sd or set) on wet boards but what about facing aggression on drier flops?
A typical example, 3 limps, we make it 6.5BBs from the SB, 2 limpers call.
Hero: A A 6 5
Flop (20bbs) K 6 4
Hero bet 14bbs
What's the plan if called and:
1. 4c comes on the turn
2. 8d comes on the turn
3. Qs comes on the turn
Same flop, but say we're pot-raised by an unknwown
Same flop, now we're raised less than pot by an unknown
I'm usually b/f'ing these flops against solid TAGGs, even though it's difficult for them to have anything but wraps here or top set. |
I noticed that no one has actually tried to answer what they would do in these situations, so I guess I will have a go.
It's going to depend on the people who are still left in the pot after the flop. I'd say 1 of them might call so let's go on with the assumption we're HU at the turn.
1. I'm thinking that 4 is a safe card, unless they have something like 4567 in which case I would've expected a raise on the flop. So I'd go ahead and lead out. If I was raised I think we've got to let it go. We have spent 6.5+14+36 = 56.5 BBs so more than half our stack is in there, but what do we beat?
I guess we could be scared of a KKxx slowplaying his topset. I know I would slowplay in this situation and pray that the board doesn't bring the straight possibility, especially against some opponents because of their aggression
If I was raised on that flop I'd probably go ahead and fold it. I hate betting and folding (just because I like monies not because it's a bad idea), but with no re-draw we're looking at a random 2pair or pair+draw hands that have at best 50/50 against and I'd rather wait for a better spot to put it in.
2. The 8 is tricky since it completes the straight. I really detest check/folding but if I know that villain doesn't bet unless he has a good hand I'd go ahead and check it to him hoping to see the river and maybe put out a block bet. If he's a tricky TAG that could prob put you on aces and see why that card is bad for you then I'm not so sure.
Unless he's habitually floating us just to play back at us (which I've had before) I'd still probably go ahead and check/fold since we don't really beat anything. If we're deciding he's really tricky and is just pushing us off our hand we can go for a check/raise but I've got to be sure that we have history.
3. Qs. Well the Qs is a pretty nice card to see imo. There were no draws that called the flop that a Q would help. If we know villain calls with just top pair or plays something stupid like QK45 then yeah we were behind the whole way anyway but nevermind it's going in.
If the villain is pretty aggro and will bet when checked to I could see a check/raise here to portray KK and fold out all the draws, because he really couldn't continue without a v strong hand.
Against unknowns I still like the Q so I would prob lead out and hope for a fold. If I get raised I hate putting in 1/2 my stack and folding but I don't really see any choice here since again, what do we beat? :s
Missed two questions:
Same flop, but say we're pot-raised by an unknwown
Well pot raises on this flop scream some kind of draw to me. If he had a made hand (KK) he wouldn't be that worried of draws to pot it with the re-raise. So I'd say he's drawing and we can go ahead and see if he wants to play for stacks (re-raise all in).
Same flop, now we're raised less than pot by an unknown
Raised less than pot makes me suspicious. He's trying to make it look weak to get us to call but I think I'd fold here, putting him on a set or a strong 2pair.
Disclaimer: I've only played 7k hands on omaha and I'm not that good. This whole post could be me completely leveling myself against people that just think "Oh look I had 4 cards and 2 of them match the board, BET!"
Clar
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nolan
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High Card
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i like to bet bet bet
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