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Please critique these 3 hands

  
 
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bigspenda73
Old 07-08-2006, 07:39 AM     Post subject: Please critique these 3 hands #1 (permalink)  
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 I played at my local B&M tonight for only about two hrs because I have to work early tomorrow; however, I had to get these posts out before I forget the hands. As this was live please bare with me:

HAND 1:
Hero is 1 from the Button with KJo
UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks

Flop: AsJh10d

UTG bets, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds

Turn: Jd

UTG bets, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls

River: 5s

UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls

HAND 2:
(Background on the players: UTG very tight, MP1 and MP2 calling stations, SB can play, but plays a lot of hands)
Hero is BB with 79c

UTG raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB calls, Hero calls

Flop: 7c9c7h

UTG bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB raises, Hero 3 bets, all call

Hero leads out blind
Turn: 4d
All 4 call

Hero leads out blind
River: 3d

UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB calls

Major question: Did I play this hand too strong, should I have just smooth called the flop and checked the turn? I think I got an extra .5BB on the flop but may have cost myseld a BB on the turn.

HAND 3:
Hero is UTG+1 with KK
Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB folds, BB folds

Flop: 6c2d6h

Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks

Turn: As
Hero bets, UTG+2 folds, MP 1 calls, MP2 calls

River: 4s
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds

Let me know what you think everyone, I played 2 hrs and walked away with 18BBs. I played well, and I give this forum some credit, notably on the value of position and what hands to play in each spot. These hands above are the hands I made the most money off of but I felt I could have played each of them better. I'll admit I played the last hand like a little girl but that Ace would slow most people down. Thank you all for any advice.
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outphase
Old 07-08-2006, 07:47 AM #2 (permalink)  
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hand 1: looks fine, you had odds on the gutshot on the flop (about break even including implied odds)

hand 2: check/3betting tips your hand, wait for the turn, then again, i'm pretty sure it balances out this way. you got 3SB on the flop + 1BB on the turn versus 1SB on the flop + 2BB on the turn. don't lead out blind, it will probably kill action.

hand 3: crying river call? i would've still bet it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
 
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euphoricism
Old 07-08-2006, 02:41 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 is fine.
Hand 2 is farking horrible.
Hand 2 is farking horrible.
Hand 3 is just bad.

Hand 2: Check/call the flop, check/raise the turn. Why the hell would you lead out blind? Do you WANT them to fold?!

Hand 3: Dont raise preflop and then check the flop, especially out of position unless youre going to c/f it.
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outphase
Old 07-08-2006, 03:13 PM #4 (permalink)  
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looks like eupho and i are on the same page on this one... not often this happens

addendum: I just thought of hand 3 a little more... are you trying to check/raise the flop? are you trying to make an Ace pay to see the turn so they don't draw out on you... cause they just got there for free
Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
 
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midas06
Old 07-08-2006, 04:45 PM #5 (permalink)  
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foreal

go for the raise on the big streets on the 2nd hand. lead the flop and dotn slwo dwon until someione raises you in the 3rd hand.
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Xanadu
Old 07-08-2006, 06:32 PM #6 (permalink)  
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eupho and outphase are right on with hands 2 and 3. Anyone think a flop raise is worth it on hand 1? If you can get any K to fold, you don't split if a Q comes, and if you can get any Q to fold, your 2pair if a K comes might win if bettor has only top pair bad kicker. Could change your hand from being worth around 5 outs 4-way to about 7 outs HU. Probably worth an extra bet especially since you might get a free turn card.
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bigspenda73
Old 07-08-2006, 09:40 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Ok, here was my thinking on all the hands.

Hand 1: I thought about raising the flop but knew I wasn't raising for value and I believed I couldn't push the gutshot draws out because I couldn't isolate with an immediate raise.

Hand 2: I played it weird, for the first hour of play no one was calling any of my bets or raises, I was scraping in some small pots but nothing too big. In hindsight I should have smooth called the flop and raised the turn, however being UTG I wasn't sure if the pot would be led out at again. I bet blind just to make everyone think a little, no one had been calling me so far and I finally got a few callers.

Hand 3: I am a little girl, that is my explanation. Yes, I wanted to check raise the flop to isolate and make it heads up; I felt i could make an ace fold if they had to call 2 bets cold; however, the person with position did not lead at the flop so that play was mute.

Thanks again for breaking down the plays, my game still needs mucho work.
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flaptornriver
Old 07-09-2006, 12:09 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: I'm raising preflop with KJo from the button. There are a few limpers already in, but I think you have the best hand preflop, plus you've got to put some pressure on the blinds here. The rest of the hand will play out beautifully...continuation bet the flop, spike the J on the turn, and nobody will put you on it when you bet again.

Hand 2: No way I'm taking the lead from UTG guy until the turn. You cost yourself some $$ on this hand.

Hand 3: You raised preflop, then check the flop on a board where it is unlikely anyone else will be able to bet. They expect you to bet, because of the continuation bets you've been making. UTG in B&M..you really just gotta bet the best hand. Bet again on the turn, folding to a raise, then check/call the river, unless there is another caller already.
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euphoricism
Old 07-09-2006, 03:05 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanadu
eupho and outphase are right on with hands 2 and 3. Anyone think a flop raise is worth it on hand 1? If you can get any K to fold, you don't split if a Q comes, and if you can get any Q to fold, your 2pair if a K comes might win if bettor has only top pair bad kicker. Could change your hand from being worth around 5 outs 4-way to about 7 outs HU. Probably worth an extra bet especially since you might get a free turn card.
Yeah I could see that.
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bigspenda73
Old 07-09-2006, 05:30 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 I like that too, only problem is I dont think Im getting the gutshot to fold. Somewhere these people were told that a gutshot has the odds to call anyone after the flop, then fold the river. I was called down by jack 4 the whole way on a q89 flop last night, I flopped bottom two and you can guess what the river was.
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Xanadu
Old 07-09-2006, 06:15 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I like that too, only problem is I dont think Im getting the gutshot to fold. Somewhere these people were told that a gutshot has the odds to call anyone after the flop, then fold the river. I was called down by jack 4 the whole way on a q89 flop last night, I flopped bottom two and you can guess what the river was.
a gutshot rarely has odds to call 2 bets on the flop in an unraised pot. If they call, they are losing money (but in the case of hand 1 here, not usually losing it to you. The whole point is that they either give up their equity, or they pay too much to draw ... a lose/lose situation that usually makes you money.
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6high
Old 07-09-2006, 07:33 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 is superstandard live.

Hand2. I don't know why everyone hates this so much. I'm assuming they didn't see the SB flop c/r. Your position nows sucks so terribly to extract value on the turn that I don't mind 3betting there and then. People playing live will always be more prepared to put in the two extra after already putting in one but they will still fold the turn for two cold. If you called the flop, it would be in the hope that UTG 3bets so you can c/r the turn. I don't see this happening a lot when the SB just checkraised the entire field on a low paired board.

Hand 3. Bet the flop for god's sake.
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CFH
Old 07-12-2006, 09:02 AM #13 (permalink)  

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Hand 1 is okay.
Hand 2 like everybody says, ya missed some $.

Hand 3 is terrible. You want to checkraise?
If somebody will bet the flop, what would he have? He would have a 6 or an A2s! U raised preflop, so the chances for Arack is low, but Axs is still there. U checkraise they will call. Turn comes the A, u bet and get raised!
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thenonsequitur
Old 07-12-2006, 03:16 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6high
Hand2. I don't know why everyone hates this so much.
...
I'm in agreement with 6high on this. I thought Hand 2 was well-played. I don't see how you're going to make extra bets by just calling this flop. If you flat call, chances are SB will lead the turn and river and there's no way to raise on the big streets without cutting the field in half. Against a loose live field that will call two small bets more, you may as well get in an extra few small bets while you can (as compared to calling) and then get the same amount of bets on the turn and river (as compared to calling). Seems like the best way to extract value here. Also by 3-betting you give SB a chance to cap the flop or check-raise the turn.


Hand 1 standard, Hand 3 terrible for reasons everyone has stated already.
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bigspenda73
Old 07-12-2006, 10:31 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 Ok, now that I have been told I played the third hand horribly by everyone and their mother let me summarize so I know exactly what not to do in the future.

I should lead out on a horrible board and knock every player out of the pot with no concievably straigt draw and no flush draw.

I need to bet the turn when an ace spikes just to see where I am at even though I can get that information without a bet.

I need to check fold the river in a pot I built to 1BB even though the pot may have 8BBs in it.

Just making sure I have all of this correct. I just don't see how this can be a horrible play, if I am able to check raise the flop then whoever is holding onto a hand besides A2 or A6 will have to lay it down. Also, I lead at the turn and was not raised. I played the hand like I had a big ace from the beginning and I sold it that way. The turn call slowed me down enough to check call the river. I just call the river believing the players would have raised the turn had they been holding an ace. I showed the best hand. The button was trying to steal the pot and I caught him. all he had was 5 7 of spades. Maybe that will illustrate what kind of players I was up against. This player had no draw the entire time and he was in the pot.

Before you call this play 'horrible' I'd like you to remember there is not one set way to play any hand. Just because I took the lead preflop I did not have to lead at it again. If I check the flop I can be put on AK not KK. Therefore I stand to be called on the turn and river. I don't think you would say this play was horrible had a Queen spiked the turn.
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euphoricism
Old 07-13-2006, 04:22 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Before you call this play 'horrible' I'd like you to remember there is not one set way to play any hand. Just because I took the lead preflop I did not have to lead at it again. If I check the flop I can be put on AK not KK. Therefore I stand to be called on the turn and river. I don't think you would say this play was horrible had a Queen spiked the turn.
No, really, it's bad. I didn't call it "horrible", but it's certainly bad. And yes there are many ways to play a hand. Only a few are suited toward maximizing profit while minimizing loss.

Let me sidetrack here a bit... Your human nature is making you defend your play. We all do it. I did LOTS of it when I just got here. I still find myself doing it from time to time (particularly when im not winning much.. "Im playing so good! how can I be losing!??!" guess what, its because I ain't playing so good.)

Conquer that. It'll make you more money than anything else.

Aaanyway, on we go.

Quote:
I should lead out on a horrible board and knock every player out of the pot with no concievably straigt draw and no flush draw.
Yes. For three reasons.

One: SSH makes it a point of saying "Take the pot before you give it to someone else" -- bet otherwise youre giving someone free cards to beat you on the turn with their two or three outter. And they'll punish you.

Two: Frankly you have to lead this flop because youre expected to lead this flop. When you don't, peoples bullshit-meters tend to go through the roof.

Three: People will call your bets drawing nearly dead A LOT.

Quote:
I need to bet the turn when an ace spikes just to see where I am at even though I can get that information without a bet.
Nope, you should bet the flop BEFORE an ace spikes. There is no doubt that the turn is a very bad card for you. It happens.

Quote:
I need to check fold the river in a pot I built to 1BB even though the pot may have 8BBs in it.
Not usually, but an 8:1 pot isn't all that big either. I'm not generally folding this hand for one bet on the river either.

Quote:
if I am able to check raise the flop then whoever is holding onto a hand besides A2 or A6 will have to lay it down.
Why would you want this? Why don't you want someone with A8 calling you on the flop? There are only 4 in the deck, and he has 1 of them. That means there's only 3 left in the deck that can come up. Mathematically you are way, way, way ahead. Don't you want him calling when he's way, way, way behind? A checkraise will only serve to make you win the least when you're ahead (they all fold) or make you lose the most when you're behind (the guy with trips owns you). Neither of these are good for you. Bet it out. Let the guy with Ax call, he will far more often than not.

Quote:
The turn call slowed me down enough to check call the river.
No problem with that. He's got an A here a LOT and sometime's he'll bluff the river with crap he won't call with -- give him the chance.
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euphoricism
Old 07-13-2006, 04:30 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenonsequitur
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6high
Hand2. I don't know why everyone hates this so much.
...
I'm in agreement with 6high on this. I thought Hand 2 was well-played. I don't see how you're going to make extra bets by just calling this flop. If you flat call, chances are SB will lead the turn and river and there's no way to raise on the big streets without cutting the field in half. Against a loose live field that will call two small bets more, you may as well get in an extra few small bets while you can (as compared to calling) and then get the same amount of bets on the turn and river (as compared to calling). Seems like the best way to extract value here. Also by 3-betting you give SB a chance to cap the flop or check-raise the turn.
Something is wrong with his description of the hand in hand 2. SB cannot possibly checkraise the flop before we do anything. SB checked, a few people called (not including us), and then SB raised? How did we miss the entire round?

I'm going to assume we FIRST flat called the flop (good) and then we all got checkraised by the SB. If this is the case, a threebet closing the action isn't anywhere near as horrible as I thought, as everyone will call one more bet.

Its a simple EV problem to calculate whats more profitable, another .5BB from everyone on the flop or another 1bb from everyone left on the turn. It involves assuming how many people will be left on the turn. At live play, there will be a lot. So it is probably very worth it to let SB lead the turn again, let everyone who wants to call, and then pop it.

The way he described the hand it looked like someone bet, a few callers, someone raised, and we threebet. Thats a bad idea.
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euphoricism
Old 07-13-2006, 04:36 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Further if we assume in hand 2 that the SB has a legit hand like A7 for trips -- he might cap us when we threebet the flop. This ain't good, it encourages others to fold since theyre
now facing two. If he doesn't threebet the flop, he might try to checkraise the turn. That means he checks, it checks to you, you bet, and he raises. Now everyone at the table definitely folds facing 2BB!

Definitely wait for the turn. Worst case is he just calls the raise down with something like A9. Best case, we trap the people drawing dead for as long as possible, villain wakes up drawing nearly dead, and we walk out a winner.

No wait, worst case is he has 99 for a higher boat, or he two outs you with JJ.
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