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Rondavu
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03-22-2005, 03:58 PM
Post subject: Playing These Group 5 Hands: KJ QJ
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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[KJ] [QJ]
I think a hole in my game might be the way I play these boys. I think they're considered the top two group 5 hands. Borderline group 4 if you will. I almost feel the need to reraise an early raiser in early-mid position in order to isolate myself against them. I just feel like cold calling often encourages others to do the same. You ever get the feeling that your cold calls ignite a marginal hand calling party? I do. I want to send the message to "Back off unless you've got something real good."
I just feel like I get good reads this way if someone 3-bets or cold calls that reraise, while throwing the early raiser off a good read on me (He puts me on a premium holding with position on him). You know what I'm saying? Like if you cold call a two bet with [KJo] and someone behind you cold calls as well, they could have anything. If they cold call or raise your 3-bet, then you should be extra cautious post-flop.
I just struggle with how to play this hand, and damn it I've decided to reraise an early raise unless I know that early raiser is super tight and post flop aggressive.
What say ye? Just looking to brainstorm the topic a little more. What have people read about this? What do you do?
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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ChezJ
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Full House
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KJo and QJo are instant folds if anyone raises before you. you cannot possibly cold call with these hands and expect to win. if the raiser has AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ/AJ/KQ then you are utterly dominated.
you shouldn't even limp in with these hands very often. they are nothing but trouble.
ChezJ
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Isn't that rondavu's point? Unless you feel that the early raiser is solid, the raise is preferable to the fold on occasion. The cold call is ruled out, which I agree is smarty.
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
if the raiser has AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ/AJ/KQ then you are utterly dominated.
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And in some of the games I play the raiser could have a ragged ace or worse, in which case you're in decent shape if you hit.
That said, I don't know that you miss out on anything by passing these.
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Chicago_Kid
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03-22-2005, 04:31 PM
Post subject: Re: Playing These Group 5 Hands: KJ QJ
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#4 (permalink)
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
[KJ] [QJ] I almost feel the need to reraise an early raiser in early-mid position in order to isolate myself against them. I just feel like cold calling often encourages others to do the same.
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I this is a leak in most games, except really weak-tight ones, muck it. The way I think about it is, if you have 5-6 players behind, you're making their decisions very easy, and they will most likely only call if they are ahead. In addition, you might be already behind the person you re-raised, b/c KJo is NOT an EP raising hand. Now if you play an aggressive, involved game and you have a good post-flop feel, you MIGHT get away with this play in weak games, but good players will take you. Playing these hands this way will likely show a loss over the long haul. They did for me until I plugged this and starting mucking.
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
I just feel like I get good reads this way if someone 3-bets or cold calls that reraise, while throwing the early raiser off a good read on me (He puts me on a premium holding with position on him).
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Well, then you are out of position, and are forced to bet out if you hit. If they smooth call, where are you then? I just don't like this...I wait for better position and better cards, or both.
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Like if you cold call a two bet with [KJo] and someone behind you cold calls as well, they could have anything.
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Yes, they could and they usually have a good holding. If this person is a real weaky, and you have tighties to your left, you might re-raise to isolate. With a cold-call, you're inviting people to call in and beat you with better holds, like KQ.
So cold-calling with these cards is really bad, and I think re-raising offsuit in EP is -EV in most all games.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
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I just feel that if I can isolate myself against the early raiser and neither of us hit, I have advantage. I'll fire away if checked to. if I hit one of my cards or have a strong draw I call it down smooth. I know about -EV and all that, but doesn't a more aggressive post-flop style somewhat make up for that when you have position on the early raiser? I just think that you have a lot of post flop options if you can isolate the early raiser with this hand. If they fire out at you instantly, you dump it. If you get check raised you dump it. I guess I feel I can get +EV with superior post flop play on these cards in this position. I just hate folding these to an early raise unless I absolutely read a dominating hand, but you cannot cold call in this situation. It's suicide. I totally agree on that point.
Everytime I get these cards with a raise before me, it's like the devil is trying to steal my soul. Especially after I've been getting Q3o for a half hour. I guess I should just monitor my success rate with these hands and take it from there. I do know one thing. At a weak table I'm raising it all day long until I get burnt consistently.
Chezj, what do you do with this hand when limped to in mid position? It just seems to me that if you 2-bet raise in mid position when limped to, you'll find yourself against a late position caller post flop, where if you 3-bet raise an early position raiser, you'll find yourself as last act postflop against the early position a reasonable amount of time. It's almost like reraising is a better situation than being the initial raiser a lot of the time. What do you think about that specifically?
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
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i fail to understand why you want to raise so much with these hands. why are you so enamored with KJ and QJ that you can't dump them pre-flop? they are borderline junk. if i'm in MP and several people have limped in before me, i'm mucking them. these hands are only worth playing in LP vs 2-3 opponents. QJ might be playable in a giant multipot if you are shooting for the str8 and nothing but the str8.
otoh, the suited versions (KJs and QJs) are a whole different story.
ChezJ
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ChezJ
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Full House
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btw, if your main interest is in isolating a pre-flop raiser with a 3bet, so that you can outplay him with position and superior tactics after the flop, then what does it matter what your hole cards are? you are essentially playing his cards, hoping he misses the board and folds to your aggression. you can implement that strategy with KJ or 72.
ChezJ
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Chicago_Kid
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Everytime I get these cards with a raise before me, it's like the devil is trying to steal my soul. Especially after I've been getting Q3o for a half hour. I guess I should just monitor my success rate with these hands and take it from there. I do know one thing. At a weak table I'm raising it all day long until I get burnt consistently.
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Discipline and patience are key, and you need to practice, yes, practice, laying these down---I know it's not easy. It's good to be aggressive, I just think you can find other spots to attack with better long-term success.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
btw, if your main interest is in isolating a pre-flop raiser with a 3bet, so that you can outplay him with position and superior tactics after the flop, then what does it matter what your hole cards are?
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It matters because you're probably going to showdown. Hence you should 3-bet hands with unimproved showdown value against loose raises. The 3-bet is often to get it heads-up so you stand a chance to win unimproved and can get the blinds out of the pot.
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Fnord
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KJ I play 3 off the button and later.
QJ I play 2 off the button and later.
With lots of limpers and/or loose players behind me (including the blinds), don't raise pre-flop. Otherwise I'm open raising either one. Fold if there is a raise in front of you, or if it comes back to you for 2 small bets after you limp.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
With lots of limpers and/or loose players behind me (including the blinds), don't raise pre-flop.
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So are you saying this is a hand that you generally limp or fold a lot, aside from favorable conditions? What I mean to say is most of the time I'm staking out loose tables anyway, so that's where I'm usually going to find myself. At a loose table, even in the CO or on the button your gonna get 2-3 callers of an initial raise when more than 2 people limp in front of you. I assume one of the blinds will complete itself even with the raise since blinds at a loose table just love playing junk.
So far I've gathered the following...
1. With 4-5 still to act in an unraised pot limp in, and fold to any raise.
2. Late position limp in unless only 1-2 limped in before you, in which case raise.
3. Never smooth call any raised pot with either of these hands
4. 3-bet an early raise if the early raiser is loose to isolate them.
Have I missed anything?
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
1. With 4-5 still to act in an unraised pot limp in, and fold to any raise.
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Open raise. Call 1 more, fold to 2 more.
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
2. Late position limp in unless only 1-2 limped in before you, in which case raise.
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I would raise a single limper, with 2 limpers I might just call. Depends on the blinds.
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
3. Never smooth call any raised pot with either of these hands
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Duh.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
4. 3-bet an early raise if the early raiser is loose to isolate them.
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That would be one hell of a 3-bet. Consider that QJo almost never wins showdown unimproved and KJo is a stretch to win showdown unimproved. I'm more inclined to 3-bet A5s.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
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Now I'm confused. You would just call in the CO or the Button with 2 or more limpers, but you open raise from mid-position with 4-5 still to act, while smooth calling a 3-bet?
Not to haggle, but the two seem incompatible. If your going to act timid to more than 1 limper when you have great position, why would you open raise in a situation where you'll find yourself almost never last act post-flop? One seems weak, and one seems a little strong maniacal, especially with the smooth call of the 3-bet. I don't doubt you, I just need some reasoning.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I would not cold call a 3-bet with either hand, however if I open-raised pot odds dictate I have to call a 3-bet. I think you're misreading my post.
I open-raise both hands because I have a good chance of getting it down to just the blinds or perhaps even taking the pot without a flop. Furthermore, it sets up a very profitable bluff on an Axx flop.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Now I'm confused. You would just call in the CO or the Button with 2 or more limpers, but you open raise from mid-position with 4-5 still to act, while smooth calling a 3-bet?
Not to haggle, but the two seem incompatible. If your going to act timid to more than 1 limper when you have great position, why would you open raise in a situation where you'll find yourself almost never last act post-flop? One seems weak, and one seems a little strong maniacal, especially with the smooth call of the 3-bet. I don't doubt you, I just need some reasoning.
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They are compatible---with Fnord, quality is job #1.
With several callers in front, you don't want to juice a pot with a weak offsuiters, cause you will create the odds for folks to draw out on you if you hit, say top pair. You want a small pot, so you can bet or raise the flop and make people give it up. Basically, these hands won't win the large/multi-way pots.
With an open raise (no callers/raisers in front), you put the pressure on those behind you, and might get better hands/players to fold out, increasing your flop outs or winning the blinds.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If I open-raised pot odds dictate I have to call a 3-bet.
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I guess that's the part I was missing.
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I open-raise both hands because I have a good chance of getting it down to just the blinds or perhaps even taking the pot without a flop. Furthermore, it sets up a very profitable bluff on an Axx flop.
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True that. Represent that ace baby!
In a home game I had 47 offsuit in the big blind. The flop was 4 10 J. One guy bet half the pot. Turn brought a 2. I checked he threw a pot sized bet out. I knew he was timid, and I had smooth called him out of his stack with a flopped straight earlier so I called it. The river brought that sweet A. I led out with an overbet of the pot and he folded. He hated me showing him 47o, but it taught him a good lesson.
Hey look at that, I hijacked my own thread and a home game pot with an ace representation.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
With several callers in front, you don't want to juice a pot with a weak offsuiters, cause you will create the odds for folks to draw out on you if you hit. You want a small pot, so you can bet or raise the flop and make people give it up. Basically, these hands won't win the large/multi-way pots.
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Offsuit, unpaired hands other than AK/AQ don't have a pre-flop edge when the pot is multi-way. Quite often you're even money or have the worst of it. So raising isn't for value. Also, raising will make someone you have dominated timid if you have them out-kicked or stop middle pair and draws from leading out on the flop. Hence, when you hit in a multi-pot you raised it becomes both harder to protect your hand and dump your hand since you're often pot-committed to at least see a turn.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
With several callers in front, you don't want to juice a pot with a weak offsuiters, cause you will create the odds for folks to draw out on you if you hit. You want a small pot, so you can bet or raise the flop and make people give it up. Basically, these hands won't win the large/multi-way pots.
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Offsuit, unpaired hands other than AK/AQ don't have a pre-flop edge when the pot is multi-way. Quite often you're even money or have the worst of it. So raising isn't for value. Also, raising will make someone you have dominated timid if you have them out-kicked or stop middle pair and draws from leading out on the flop. Hence, when you hit in a multi-pot you raised it becomes both harder to protect your hand and dump your hand since you're often pot-committed to at least see a turn. |
I was referring to raising on the flop it you hit a pair, and a person close on your right opens. I agree raising a pair on the flop isn't for value here, unless you (1) are in a small pot (2) and have the raiser to your right so you can knock others out behind you. Fnord, maybe you're saying this is not a good idea to raise at all no matter the position/raiser?
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
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A little extra thoughtfood:
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...599&m_id=65557
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