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Gatlin Dan
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03-09-2005, 09:30 PM
Post subject: Playing suited aces in loose games
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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How many limpers and cold-callers am I going to want to see already in the pot before I can profitably call two-cold with a suited Ace. Any suggestions on this?
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AidanN20
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 106
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I find a suited ace to be only a playable hand in a full ring game with alot of callers , maybe late position?
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Dont F' with me, I can grind it out like a bot
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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In the BB I'll call a raise with 4 others, on the button I might cold call if there are 6 in the hand already. But I haven't run into that yet....
- sed
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Brodie
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 95
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If I'm in a super loose-passive game where everyone limps and calls every raise (I often play in B&M games like that), I'll even raise with Axs from late position to build the pot. Probably crazy, but you'd be shocked how many times I get raised and re-raised on the river by worse flushes and two pair, so hitting a nut flush is extremely lucrative.
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Brodie
"The present success is the hundred failures of the past."
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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recently i've started distinguishing between suited aces. there's A2s-A8s, and then there's A9s-AKs.
with the low suited kickers, you are praying for only one kind of flop. if you miss it, it's an instant dump. if you flop an ace, you are most likely screwed. if you flop all low rags, you only have one overcard so you don't have odds to chase. the only playable flops without your draw are 2 pair and a low pair with correct odds to see the turn.
with the higher kickers, you have a lot more outs to continue if you don't flop your draw. say you have A9s and the flop comes 9 high. that's a raising situation! say you flop an ace. again, you can bet/raise. say you flop all low rags. if there's enough in the pot, you can chase TP w/ your 2 overcards.
conclusion: the higher suited aces have more value and are more worthy of a coldcall in a multiway pot than the lower suited aces.
ChezJ
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
recently i've started distinguishing between suited aces. there's A2s-A8s, and then there's A9s-AKs.
with the low suited kickers, you are praying for only one kind of flop. if you miss it, it's an instant dump. if you flop an ace, you are most likely screwed. if you flop all low rags, you only have one overcard so you don't have odds to chase. the only playable flops without your draw are 2 pair and a low pair with correct odds to see the turn.
with the higher kickers, you have a lot more outs to continue if you don't flop your draw. say you have A9s and the flop comes 9 high. that's a raising situation! say you flop an ace. again, you can bet/raise. say you flop all low rags. if there's enough in the pot, you can chase TP w/ your 2 overcards.
conclusion: the higher suited aces have more value and are more worthy of a coldcall in a multiway pot than the lower suited aces.
ChezJ
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Well put!
I look at AXs in 6 distinct categories:
A2s thru A5s,
A6s thru A8s,
A9s & ATs, (I wonder if ATs deserves it's own category too, and move A9s down to A6s thru A8s??)
AJs,
AQs,
AKs
AJs, AQs, and AKs each deserve their own, and I find the hands in the other 3 groups play similarly from a kicker perspective.
Also, (I think I read this in SSH) don't listen to people that say A2 thru A5s are more valuable than A6s thru A8s because of the added value in potentially making a wheel-str8. Out-kicking another lower kicker happens way more often than hitting a wheel str8.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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A5s has about the same EV as A7s
A4s is slightly higher than A6s.
(accoring to 122million hands on Poker room)
They all have slightly + avg EV.
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
A5s has about the same EV as A7s
A4s is slightly higher than A6s.
(accoring to 122million hands on Poker room)
They all have slightly + avg EV.
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This is pretty much what SSH says as well.
I do find myself coming in with low suited aces, flopping top pair and folding to a bet. Even suited aces that can make a wheel given a favorable flop, I often fold to a bet, because you do have at best a four out gutshot with the wheel draw. They are only slightly +EV best, so I have no trouble folding these on the flop in two to a flush does not appear.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Top pair in a mulit-pot is good until given extremely compelling evidence suggesting otherwise.
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Top pair in a mulit-pot is good until given extremely compelling evidence suggesting otherwise.
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Normally, I would agree with this, but the Ace seems to be an exception at the stakes I currently play. At the small levels at party you will so often have a table full of people that will play any ace suited or not, limping or against a raise. Because of this the liklihood of being outkicked seems to be increased when you are playing things like A4s, etc. If there are six or seven people in, I don't like that TP 4 kicker, and often chose to muck it sacrificing the potential profit to avoid risking losing big bets in the later betting rounds against an off suit ace with a better kicker. i will look for paired boards and high cards that will likely leave both mine and the majority of kickers that the other aces may have not playing, thus splitting the pot, but it seems that the +EV of these hands is small enough, that they may even move in to the -EV range in a game where so many A-rags get played.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
A5s has about the same EV as A7s
A4s is slightly higher than A6s.
(accoring to 122million hands on Poker room)
They all have slightly + avg EV.
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When looking at those EV numbers, I think you have to apply some critical thinking, and look at them with some context in mind.
I bet if you go look at those EV numbers for ace-rag, you'll find that they systematically get better at higher stakes where on average players are more skilled and therefore just play these hands better.
Here's the point I made in another thread (http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=7860) re: Poker Room's EV numbers:
Key point, I think that in general we have to be careful about using those EV numbers. Why? Well, because they are actual numbers from real live games averaged over limits from $1/2 to $10/20 , and therefore they represent an average over how all players played that particular hand. I'd suggest that the average is brought down by the higher number of bad players playing at the lower limits where that kind of holding is likely to be played poorly on average.
I'm not saying those EV-numbers aren't informative or useful, I just think that if you have strong post-flop skills, you can beat some of those numbers.
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