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metaxy6
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05-12-2005, 05:24 AM
Post subject: Playing Small Suited Aces
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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I think I might have a leak in my game. Small suited aces!!
I pretty much always call with them from any position and hope that there's no raise behind me. I'll call a single raise but just about always fold to a 3 bet. I just want to see flop as cheaply as possible.
I have a fair idea of what to do after the flop. I'll chase the flush if my suit shows up, but if an ace pops won't call raises with my crap kicker. I'm not a flush lover (not the type to play any 2 suited) or an ace lover, but there's a lot of good this hand can do. So, what do you think - is it costing me to call in early position with these hands?
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Fnord
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05-12-2005, 05:44 AM
Post subject: Re: Playing Small Suited Aces
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#2 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by metaxy6
I'll call a single raise but just about always fold to a 3 bet.
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Stop that.
I  sooted Aces, here is how I like to play them *cackle*
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
Preflop: Fnord is Button with 8 , A.
4 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Fnord raises, SB calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls.
Flop: (7 SB) K, 6 , 6 (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, SB folds, MP2 folds.
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metaxy6
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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That's easy. You were on the button. And you had A8 not A2 or A3.
Do you call preflop raises out of position with em?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by metaxy6
Do you call preflop raises out of position with em?
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I'll often call 1 sb out of my big blind with one. Outside of my bilnds I rarely call raises. More often than not, if I can't 3-bet the raiser's range then I just fold.
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rmariani
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 117
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I think I'm calling way too much Axs crap.
Or I am unlucky with the outcomes...
It's not a positive hand for me by any means.
Maybe only from last 3 positions with no raises and 3 limpers it can be profitable. I would apreciate tips on this subject also!
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Yeldud
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 149
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Post some hand histories of Axs hands.
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If you put all your faith in the river, you are up shit's creek
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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raise or no raise, if there are 3 people in the pot already i'm comin in for a ride also.
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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i'll raise on the button with crap ace s00ted, if its folded to me.
like hyper says, make sure you have some dead money already limped in to pad your draw.
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by metaxy6
Do you call preflop raises out of position with em?
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I'll often call 1 sb out of my big blind with one. Outside of my bilnds I rarely call raises. |
Even if you limp, then it gets raised?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
More often than not, if I can't 3-bet the raiser's range then I just fold.
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Closer the raiser is to your left the better. if I'm first to call, then there's a raise right behind me and a couple cold calls, I'll juice this with a 3bet, expecting all opps will call.
'Course if the raiser caps, and no one else comes along, you gotta call -- unless you're very sure he's an aces/kings/AK guy. You could conceivably fold that, I guess. But usually have a look, then run if the flop doesn't just pound you.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LeFou
'Course if the raiser caps, and no one else comes along, you gotta call -- unless you're very sure he's an aces/kings/AK guy. You could conceivably fold that, I guess. But usually have a look, then run if the flop doesn't just pound you.
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if i had 72o, and they had AA/KK, and i KNOW this, i'm still calling since at this point. i'm getting over something like 20:1 to call. i'm disregarding how i would get into such a situation with 72o to begin with.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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i used to play suited A-rag in all positions too. i eventually realized it was a leak. here's why.
you are hoping to flop a flush draw. it is a rather slim hope. the odds are something like 8:1 against (never mind the further odds against completing the flush). so you need the pot to lay you some good odds before the flop. in limit hold em, the only way to get good odds is to have multiway action. unfortunately, if you are in EP or sometimes MP, you really have no clue whether the pot will be multiway or shorthanded. unless the table is extremely loose-passive (seeing over 50% of the flops), you can't take the risk of winding up in a shorthanded pot with a drawing hand. even if your flush hits, you won't get paid enough to cover all your previous misses.
furthermore, because you will be missing about 8 times for every 1 hit, you'll want to minimize the amount you are investing in each shot. you gotta see that flop for cheap. sure, if you limp in and it's raised behind you and there's multiway action, the odds are technically correct to call. same deal if it's raised and a bunch of people cold-call. but your bankroll variance will be a lot higher if you routinely pay 2 bets on such a speculative hand. you can minimize this by only playing low suited aces in LP or late MP.
finally, keep in mind that A-rag suited is truly a speculative hand. if you miss the flop, or even flop an ace, you're dumping it. whereas with a higher suited ace, say A9s, you are probably going to keep going if you pair either card, and you'll have a reasonable expectation to win this way. since those higher aces have more outs, you can play them in a few more spots and against more raises. but you'll want to avoid this with the lower aces.
ChezJ
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honsheung
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
i used to play suited A-rag in all positions too. i eventually realized it was a leak. here's why.
you are hoping to flop a flush draw. it is a rather slim hope. the odds are something like 8:1 against (never mind the further odds against completing the flush). so you need the pot to lay you some good odds before the flop. in limit hold em, the only way to get good odds is to have multiway action. unfortunately, if you are in EP or sometimes MP, you really have no clue whether the pot will be multiway or shorthanded. unless the table is extremely loose-passive (seeing over 50% of the flops), you can't take the risk of winding up in a shorthanded pot with a drawing hand. even if your flush hits, you won't get paid enough to cover all your previous misses.
furthermore, because you will be missing about 8 times for every 1 hit, you'll want to minimize the amount you are investing in each shot. you gotta see that flop for cheap. sure, if you limp in and it's raised behind you and there's multiway action, the odds are technically correct to call. same deal if it's raised and a bunch of people cold-call. but your bankroll variance will be a lot higher if you routinely pay 2 bets on such a speculative hand. you can minimize this by only playing low suited aces in LP or late MP.
finally, keep in mind that A-rag suited is truly a speculative hand. if you miss the flop, or even flop an ace, you're dumping it. whereas with a higher suited ace, say A9s, you are probably going to keep going if you pair either card, and you'll have a reasonable expectation to win this way. since those higher aces have more outs, you can play them in a few more spots and against more raises. but you'll want to avoid this with the lower aces.
ChezJ
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AGREE, just dump the small suited aces in early postions.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
finally, keep in mind that A-rag suited is truly a speculative hand. if you miss the flop, or even flop an ace, you're dumping it.
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quit folding the best hand.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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When I play A-baby suited, I'm chucking unless I flop a two pair or better or a flush draw. In full ring at my levels (1/2, 2/4), someone always has an Ace, and if I've peg other reasonable players still in the hand, I strongly consider myself out-kicked and look for a chance to fold.
E.g., if I flop an A with no draws and a baby kicker (under 2-8), I will often fold to a small pot if I have multi-way action in front of me.
I used to call these down until I found that Axs were bleeding me of chips.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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honsheung
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 153
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used to call these down until I found that Axs were bleeding me of chips
what does this mean ?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LeFou
Even if you limp, then it gets raised?
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Call 1 more sb, usually fold if it's 2 more.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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hyper i assume your comment is based on your 6max experience. i was referring only to full ring games, where ace-rag always loses to ace-big. i know because i'm always the ace-big. 
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LeFou
'Course if the raiser caps, and no one else comes along, you gotta call -- unless you're very sure he's an aces/kings/AK guy. You could conceivably fold that, I guess. But usually have a look, then run if the flop doesn't just pound you.
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if i had 72o, and they had AA/KK, and i KNOW this, i'm still calling since at this point. i'm getting over something like 20:1 to call. i'm disregarding how i would get into such a situation with 72o to begin with. |
this is a better strategy for 15/30 than it is for 2/4.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
raise or no raise, if there are 3 people in the pot already i'm comin in for a ride also.
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You definately need to put depends here. I'm not cold calling Axs unless I'm sure the blinds will call and my x > 8. Granted, it also helps depending on the table texture. I'll often limp UTG with my baby AXs to generate action (and I know i'll get it). To the average player: never call a raise preflop if you've yet to put money in the pot. as you get better start throwing in the high quality suited connectors such as KQs and AJs. Its three bet or fold per norm at 2/4 full.
Just like when I call with baby pockets, I dont mind if I'm raised behind, Because then I know I'll get paid off if i do hit.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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metaxy6
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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Quote:
you are hoping to flop a flush draw. it is a rather slim hope. the odds are something like 8:1 against (never mind the further odds against completing the flush). so you need the pot to lay you some good odds before the flop. in limit hold em, the only way to get good odds is to have multiway action. unfortunately, if you are in EP or sometimes MP, you really have no clue whether the pot will be multiway or shorthanded. unless the table is extremely loose-passive (seeing over 50% of the flops), you can't take the risk of winding up in a shorthanded pot with a drawing hand. even if your flush hits, you won't get paid enough to cover all your previous misses.
furthermore, because you will be missing about 8 times for every 1 hit, you'll want to minimize the amount you are investing in each shot. you gotta see that flop for cheap. sure, if you limp in and it's raised behind you and there's multiway action, the odds are technically correct to call.
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Ya - that's pretty much where I'm at with it. At a loose passive table, where there's little chance of a raise behind me, I'll probably adjust and limp with these. But even a couple agrressive players make it too expensive to play these from anywhere short of one off the button.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
finally, keep in mind that A-rag suited is truly a speculative hand. if you miss the flop, or even flop an ace, you're dumping it.
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quit folding the best hand. |
I'll re-raise that..
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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in reply to elipsesjeff's comment, to have a more precise answer, if i can have 6 players seeing the flop myself included, i'm playing a suited ace regardless of how many raises there are preflop.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
hyper i assume your comment is based on your 6max experience. i was referring only to full ring games, where ace-rag always loses to ace-big. i know because i'm always the ace-big. |
my comment applies to all games. raise to protect your hand.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by honsheung
used to call these down until I found that Axs were bleeding me of chips
what does this mean ?
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It means I used to call down a pair of A's every time, with a bettor in front of me. With A5s, and no real draws, and several bettors in front, I often find myself outkicked. Thus, I might fold this to a couple bettors in front of me with an A on board.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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shallam
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05-16-2005, 05:12 PM
Post subject: Ace Rag suited
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#24 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 98
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In most of the on line games I play, the preflop play is loose and passive --- there are many callers and raising is rare. Under these conditions I will play Ace-rag suited in any position. I view it as a pure flush play with immense implied odds. If I get my flush (assuming no paired cards on board) I can raise fearlessly. If I catch (only) an ace on the flop but no flush draw I'm gone. If I catch an ace and a backdoor flush I might stick around. I'd give myself 5 outs (2 for backdoor flush, 3 for undercard) to see if I have 8 to 1 pot odds.
If I'm playing in a tight aggressive game (few callers lots of preflop raising) I play ace rag suited only in late position in an unraised pot - and then only maybe. I would not call in a raised pot unless I'm in the big blind.
Ace suited plays best against many opponents.
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