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playing small and mid pocket pairs in late position.

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littleogre

01-22-2006, 09:52 AM Post subject: playing small and mid pocket pairs in late position.

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

This mainly concerns when you get such a hand on the button with several limpers. Conventional logic says to call for the set. My question is why is it not correct to bet? Also the table is such that the limpers will probably call your bet . If you feel you are geting enough value to call why not bet. Here is a hypothetical situation.

Her0 66 on the button

when it gets around hero there are 3 limpers + blinds in the pot. They decide that it is worth it to try and flop a set. Personally i prefer to bet out so long as i think most of those limpers will come a long for the ride. Please feel free to discuss the pros and cons of beting and limping

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ihategnomes

01-22-2006, 10:06 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: Louisiana

Posts: 1,225

When you say bet you mean raise right? Then no, raise would suck. Smaller pairs 22-55 work well against a lot of players, raising does not really help us, it just increases varience, not too mention that a hand like 66 against 3 limpers probably only has an equity of 24% or so. Not too mention how hard it will be to play a flop with cards > 6 on them.

Now lets say you have a loose raiser, 3-betting them to isolate is ok, as long as the blinds and the players left to act after you are fairly tight and you are in a later position.

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littleogre

01-22-2006, 10:36 AM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

I mean 3 or more limpers cold call the blinds and you are in a situation where you feel it is ok to try and flop a set. here i will give a made up hand

Player A post blind
player B post blind
player limpy-mclimps calls
player never folds calls
player gota see the flop calls
button has lets say 77

Now lets assume that these lipers and the bb will usually always call if i bet out. Is there value in beting or do i need even more limpers to bet. I guess the key question is how many limpers will call when it gets back around to them.

Phyl

01-22-2006, 12:53 PM Post subject: Re: playing small and mid pocket pairs in late position.

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Texas

Posts: 396

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

If you feel you are geting enough value to call why not bet.

You have sufficient odds to draw to a set but you do not have an equity edge therefore you wish to minimise the number of bets you must pay to see the flop (assuming the pot is already multiway). Since you do not have an equity edge there isn't value in building the pot preflop, in fact it just halves your implied odds and lowers your overall ROI. Edit: It also makes it a lot harder to win the pot without improvement as the pot would be so big.

BTW, you could make an argument for raising just before the button but that would be to win the button and have the flop checked to you instead of for immediate value.

I hope this helps.

ihategnomes

01-22-2006, 05:45 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Phyl, I missed your avatar.

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

littleogre

01-23-2006, 04:08 AM Post subject: Re: playing small and mid pocket pairs in late position.

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phyl

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

If you feel you are geting enough value to call why not bet.

You have sufficient odds to draw to a set but you do not have an equity edge therefore you wish to minimise the number of bets you must pay to see the flop (assuming the pot is already multiway). Since you do not have an equity edge there isn't value in building the pot preflop, in fact it just halves your implied odds and lowers your overall ROI. Edit: It also makes it a lot harder to win the pot without improvement as the pot would be so big.

Ok ty for your clear explanation. In what situation would you raise a mid pair from the button against several limpers or do you usually just limp aswell? Also once again assume that the table is as loose as paris hilton.

BTW, you could make an argument for raising just before the button but that would be to win the button and have the flop checked to you instead of for immediate value.

I hope this helps.

01-23-2006, 05:58 AM

#7 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Basically, you're calling for implied odds. You really need MORE THAN EIGHT people in the hand to have an equity edge.

Xanadu

01-23-2006, 02:47 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Location: st. paul, MO

Posts: 966

The problem with raising these small/medium pairs is that unless you hit a set or straight draw, they are very difficult to play for their full potential value after the flop. If your opponents are super-loose, you may have a slight edge against 3 of them. 77 is 35% to win against 3 random hands. About half the time, the win comes without improving. The problem with raising for value (if value is there) is that most hands it is very difficult to know if you are ahead on the flop, and even if you are, if you can't thin the field, the chances of overcards to come make it unlikely to win. I think it is actually better to be first to act after the flop in these situations. The reason for this is that if noone improves on the flop, it is likely to be checked to the person last to act who will probably bet, allowing an effective check-raise to thin the field. At a loose table, a flop bet from late position is not usually interpreted for strength and will often be called by everyone, especially if the pot was raised preflop. Raising preflop from late position actually puts you in a tougher spot after the flop. There are only a few non-set non-straight draw flops that are likely to allow you to get value from 77 after the flop in a 4way flop.

These would be, best to worst,

3 of a kind
undercards with a pair
pair higher than 7 with undercard
overcard with underpair
3 undercards (this might belong higher on the list)

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playing small and mid pocket pairs in late position.

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