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playing FD/SD good pot odds/ vs poor

  
 
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Lance
Old 02-13-2009, 07:03 PM     Post subject: playing FD/SD good pot odds/ vs poor #1 (permalink)  
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Lance
I posted 2 types of FD with main difference, good pot odds and bad pot odds.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Preflop: Hero is BB with K, 10
2 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls

Flop: (6 SB) 8, 4, 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero ?

I believe that at 2/4 and higher stakes its probably best to show an aggression but in microstakes where is no fold equity, does have any sense to bet or check raise ?

I tend to play behind and see what next card brings, is it right move against loose passive player ?

possible moves here:
bet/check raise/ call (assuming cbet from button and consider SB folds on the flop)......
1) If i bet, he calls and next card UI....should i bet again ? How much is important if turn card is A or 3...Should i bet when the Ace comes ?
2) is it better to check raise him, what next if turn card UI ?
3) i just c/c.....turn UI, should i c/c again...(i have pot odds).
If turn is improved, should i straightly bet, or wait for checkraise ?




PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (3 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 4
Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks

Flop: (3 SB) 5, 3, 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero ?

This is the easier spot...because there are just 2 lines how to play it imho....
Probably i would bet here, ok i do it.......button calls (SB as well)....and the turn card is Jh.......now i have to c/f......approve these moves plz...


I know, again, all moves depend on image of the villain...
but again, please consider unknown maybe better loose passive players for micro/low stakes players as we are
There must be some standard lines for flush and straight draw
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe" (Albert Einstein)
 
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Chopper
Old 02-13-2009, 09:37 PM #2 (permalink)  
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in my experience, 50/1 can be VERY aggro...overly so. so, i think i like to lead this and 3bet the flop if 3 people are staying in the hand. FE is the least of your concerns on the flop. you have 2 overcards and 2nd FD. you have to pump the pot here, FOR VALUE, if they let you and it wont force any fish to fold.

if you play your draws passively, but your made hands aggressively, you will be easy to read. if you overplay your draws, you will become a spewtard. its a delicate balance, but you only pump the draws with equity share to do so.

bet/3bet or c/r this flop.

against a loose-passive you MUST take all the equity they give. they will absolutely tell you when its time to fold. if you have an edge, you CHARGE them for it.....because you know they wont fold.

here is an example from 10 minutes ago....while reading your post.

i have a total call station/lpp in the hand with me. my hand may be good on the flop, but the draw i dont like. when it checks around, i slap at the turn because i have a Qs redraw (and overcard) and because it actually DENIES odds to the As if it sits to my immediate left, but i am looking for value from hands that call and chase, too. i will re-evaluate if i get a raise in my face....which i should if i am well behind (actually, i should have seen something on the flop). they only call!!!!???? ok, no 7 out. no flush out. maybe the As is what will kill me, but any other spade will call my on the river, too, at THIS table.

fyi, this table had, from my right, a 45/3, 60/0, 33/3, 30/0, 44/2 on it. i was running 21/18/4.5! collectively, including me, was running 42/2.2! only the 45/3 was running an AF over 0.5!

my river bet is beyond marginal (poor) at any other table in the world....but, its for value here, and its not even that thin. of course, i am folding to almost any raise (because they are so passive). but, they will also call me VERY lightly. so, i am maxxing whatever value i think i can find on this table. i look like a douchebag (if they pay any attention) and that only helps them call me even lighter. if you think i am EVER bluffing on this table, you need your head examined. only semibluffs, that arent really bluffs, because i have the equity advantage....like combos on flops.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, 10
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks

Flop: (5 SB) 7, 10, 7 (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Button checks

Turn: (2.5 BB) 6 (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, 2 folds, Button calls

River: (5.5 BB) 3 (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, 1 fold

Total pot: $3.75 (7.5 BB) | Rake: $0.15



hand two is much easier. its a limped pot with no money in it. i like to take shots here on the flop, too, if i feel i have any chance of folding them both. if not, i c/f. and, the turn is only a c/c if i have pot odds to take my river card. you sound fine here.

remember: at these stakes, its better to play your cards and the board, with a little hand reading thrown in, than to worry too much about the player. you only need to know if they are loose or tight. aggro or passive. the rest is "fancy play syndrome" of which i can be very guitly. (see: ANY HAND IVE EVER POSTED)
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Lance
Old 02-14-2009, 01:45 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
in my experience, 50/1 can be VERY aggro...overly so. so, i think i like to lead this and 3bet the flop if 3 people are staying in the hand. FE is the least of your concerns on the flop. you have 2 overcards and 2nd FD. you have to pump the pot here, FOR VALUE, if they let you and it wont force any fish to fold.

if you play your draws passively, but your made hands aggressively, you will be easy to read. if you overplay your draws, you will become a spewtard. its a delicate balance, but you only pump the draws with equity share to do so.

bet/3bet or c/r this flop.

against a loose-passive you MUST take all the equity they give. they will absolutely tell you when its time to fold. if you have an edge, you CHARGE them for it.....because you know they wont fold.
Assuming standard microlimit player 40/10/1
He can have any pair, AT+. He is not gonna fold whatever happens.
OK, i pump the flop and the turn card UI 82% (my outs for 2 overcards are not clear here probably). What next ?
I am OOP....i showed the aggression so we should continue in betting (?), it looks like a spewtarding now. And i am not going to do that to look unreadable.

These tards normally call with 22 board like J,Q,A,8,9 and doesnt matter that u capped preflop.

Even better players (30/16/2) have tend to call to the showdown with hands like any pair, AK, AQs on the board 8s, 4s, 9c
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe" (Albert Einstein)
 
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Chopper
Old 02-14-2009, 03:06 AM #4 (permalink)  
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if you c/r the flop....or b/3b....and miss the turn, you simply c/c. (i had a whole thing typed out, but realized that wont do much but tell everyone how to play the hand. so, lets have a little fun instead.)

turn is Qh.....what is your plan and why?

turn is As....now?

turn pairs the board....now?

you miss turn (scenario 1), but hit K on river....now?

you miss turn, but hit a spade on river....now?

you miss both....now?

that oughta be fun cause they can all be different lines, imo.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Lance
Old 02-14-2009, 08:55 PM #5 (permalink)  
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asdpiiikas and dog....where are you ? ((
more opinions plzzzz
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe" (Albert Einstein)
 
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asdpikas
Old 02-14-2009, 09:19 PM #6 (permalink)  
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asdpikas
hmmmm raise?

LOL you know my answer

hand 1.
c/r 100%
you want to caress that pot and build it, even at lowest stakes sb may fold if u bet and btn raises.
if they are LPP, bet turn whatever happens since they wont raise often, and u will still be getting all the odds in the world
bet river whatever happens if you didnt get raised on turn (at this point the pot is so big...)

Hand 2.
bet flop
if they call, bet turn
if they call, c/f river

OK. A little on FE, SSHE, draws and all that...

Like chop said, on hand one, you are not betting or raising as a semibluff. You are betting/raising for value. Period. You have probably close to 40% equity in a 3way pot where your fair share is 33%. At this point, you dont want folds, you want calls.
The turn gets a little tricky, but even at the micros i like betting better if UI. Reason is that you wont get raised almost ever (passive players abound and you showed big strength on flop) and c/c just turns your hand face up while getting the same odds.
Betting the river if no one raised u is a no brainer cause u only have to win UI a small fraction of the time to show a profit. I know it seems like they never fold at those stakes, but THEY DO, just not as often.

Hand 2 is were u like to have some FE, and it is the perfect spot. Limped pot, u are in the blinds, u could have any 2 cards, so really it is scary to call u (u could have 2pair, a set... for all they know), and if one does call u, firing the turn again will get the job done many times (ppl tend to take one off but fold the turn if 2barrelled). If u get a call or raise on turn, time to give up, that guy hit something and isnt going anywhere.
Your equity on that pot is also much lower (9hi never wins) so firing that 2nd barrel is most important. You wouldnt like to check the turn, villain checks, river u miss, check check again, and villain wins with Jack high.
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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Lance
Old 02-14-2009, 09:58 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
You have probably close to 40% equity in a 3way pot where your fair share is 33%. At this point, you dont want folds, you want calls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper
FE is the least of your concerns on the flop. you have 2 overcards and 2nd FD. you have to pump the pot here, FOR VALUE
Nice point....need to read it again and again and realize it
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe" (Albert Einstein)
 
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Chopper
Old 02-14-2009, 11:18 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Chopper
lol.....i had to c/c thousands of times to realize it. youre ahead of me there.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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socal1111
Old 02-15-2009, 03:57 AM #9 (permalink)  
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socal1111
They said it best... and NAILED IT! But thought you'd like to hear it again, so next time, you pump it up!

1) c/r, cap... lead turn - FOR VALUE!!!! AT ANY LIMIT, ANYWHERE, ONLINE OR LIVE!
-- actually, just reread op. You also gotta think about 3-betting preflop once in awhile. CO's range is wide, and SB's smooth call is terrible!

2) lead, lead, c/f ui (maybe lead river, depending on ... everything)
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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