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Strung

04-04-2005, 03:19 AM Post subject: Playing against maniacs

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 209

Ok, I had a hand today that crushed me after I saw the outcome. I dont have the exact history but I remember the cards.

Deal: AhKh (MPish)

Callers, I raise (MP), get reraised(CO), it's capped (UTG), i call. Going into the flop there is about 5 people.

Flop:

8c Kd 4c

bet to me by (UTG), I raise, others fold, (CO reraises), UTG (calls), I call.

At this point I'm putting CO on AA or KK, UTG something like KJ or even QQ/JJ, I do note the 2 flush, so maybe someone is raising for value.

Turn: 9h

UTG bets, I raise, CO calls(?????), UTG re-raises, I call, CO calls

At this point I'm baffled, maybe UTG has 99 or something or a K9.

River: 2c

UTG bets, I call, CO raises, UTG re-raises. I bail. CO ends up capping The way they were betting I couldn't get any kind of a solid read. I thought someone hit a flush.

They turn over their cards, CO wins with KQ. WHAT IS GOING ON???? I was so crushed to lose such a big pot when I had the winning hand. I think if that last card had been anything but a club I woulda stuck it out.

So my question is how bad was my play here? Is it worth it to stay to the end of a big pot like that when you are faced with so many raise/re-raises? I think the biggest problem I am facing right now is I'm not used to people building these monster pots and it's throwing me off. I swear they do it just for fun and I'm not sure how to handle it.

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Fnord

04-04-2005, 03:26 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I guess you had a bad read.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

04-04-2005, 05:41 AM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

I have experienced what you have lots of times.

You don't say so specifically in your post, but I think I can guess what your thinking was.

"Damn, I 'd be willing to call down one of these maniacs, but AT LEAST one of these guys must have my TPTK beat."

It was the three-way action that caused you to fold, and that's why you are beating yourself up even more.

The fact is even if you knew both players were LAGS, I'm not sure you'd get any good reads with all the action going on.

There are nights when you can make all the right plays and hammer them, and there are nights when everytime you turn up the heat they are holding the real goods - as if they can see what is in your hand.

If playing in this kind of game makes you uncomfortable, then they have you right were they want you - unsure of yourself. If you can get position on one of them and isolate them, then that should help. If not, you may just want to look for action that fits better for you.

As others will attest, I don't have much to offer for suggetions (lol). But here is something I think few will argue with. If you are going to tangle with these types of players, be prepared for wild up and downswings. Also, tighten up. They may be wild but if you are not in many hands even LAGS will take notice when you come out agressive.

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

DWDuck

04-04-2005, 02:48 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Canada eh?

Posts: 178

Unless you're absolutely sure of your reads here, I think you have to call. There are over 30 BB in the pot, and at the time you need to call 2 bets. You only need a 7% chance of winning to make this +EV. Somebody please correct me if I'm out to lunch here....

Strung

04-04-2005, 03:30 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 209

Ya, it was a very large pot. I was reading in SSH about these types of things and the advice was don't fold to one bet in large pots. I guess the thing that got me was that it was 2 or 3 bets I was gonna end up cold calling. The other thing that prevented me from calling was a few hands prior I had something similar happen, except I did the opposite and called but the guy hit his flush on the river lol. I had it in my mind "Not again". Like I said, if it was anything but the third flush card I would of probably ended up capping it myself.

Chicago_Kid

04-04-2005, 04:47 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

"Damn, I 'd be willing to call down one of these maniacs, but AT LEAST one of these guys must have my TPTK beat."

It was the three-way action that caused you to fold, and that's why you are beating yourself up even more.

This is a very tough situation. You are sandwiched, with action going all over the place. I've laid down KK with an A on board with flush and str8 draws out, and then see QQ take down a large pot. Sometimes your reads do you wrong.

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

DWDuck

04-04-2005, 05:49 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Canada eh?

Posts: 178

Quote:

The reasoning behind that part in SSH is based on the % amount you need to win the hands to make it profitable. With over 30xBB in there and you with TPTK, I think you'd win more than 7% of the time. I suppose you still have to fear the cap behind you (which happened), but even then the number only goes up to 8-9% or so.

You shouldn't base it on previous hands either (obviously). Most of the time you'll lose these hands. If you win them 10-15% of the time though, you'll be making money. It's difficult to think long term sometimes, but it's necessary for good long term profit.

Darkwing

Strung

04-04-2005, 06:35 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 209

Thanks Darkwing, that is good advice about thinking things in long term. I've played enough to know that each hand is independent but I guess it was just one of those sessions where every play you made, even if you are playing properly is wrong and you get beat. A few hands before that I had KK, PFR and get one caller. Board is rags, bet he calls, turn is garbage, bet he calls, river is Ace. He bets. I just laughed when that happened, I fold and said "let me guess Ax offsuit". A6 he says haha.

Chicago_Kid

04-04-2005, 08:00 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,132

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strung

Don't fold this again HU. Pay him off and say 'nh'. If you fold this, he'll push you around again and again, and you won't know where you are on future hands against him and any other observant players.

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

Element187

04-05-2005, 03:13 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 802

my play against maniacs is i wait for a good hand like AK , if i hit on the flop, im going to cap every street against maniacs.

there are only two ways to play against maniacs.. one is my way.. get in there and gamble.

and two, mike caro suggests doing just the opposite, call them down, dont raise them.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

lonnie

04-05-2005, 03:43 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Quote:

So my question is how bad was my play here? Is it worth it to stay to the end of a big pot like that when you are faced with so many raise/re-raises?

Your play was fine. No, it is not worth it.

Quote:

Don't fold this again HU. Pay him off and say 'nh'.

Guess this responder was missing the fact that Strung was not HU, was actually stuck in the middle of two mad-cap raisers.

Quote:

and two, mike caro suggests doing just the opposite, call them down, dont raise them.

He couldn't just call down, there were two others in the hand.

Quote:

With over 30xBB in there and you with TPTK, I think you'd win more than 7% of the time.

With this board, and getting 3-bet with 3 way action on the river, there is no way your hand will be good 7% of the time. One pair simply does not win 3-bet, 3-way rivers very often at all, especially with 3 of a suit showing.

I think your play was just fine. This was not a simple call-down, just one more bet kind of situation.

Element187

04-05-2005, 03:54 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 802

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonnie

Quote:

So my question is how bad was my play here? Is it worth it to stay to the end of a big pot like that when you are faced with so many raise/re-raises?

Your play was fine. No, it is not worth it.

Quote:

Don't fold this again HU. Pay him off and say 'nh'.

Guess this responder was missing the fact that Strung was not HU, was actually stuck in the middle of two mad-cap raisers.

Quote:

and two, mike caro suggests doing just the opposite, call them down, dont raise them.

He couldn't just call down, there were two others in the hand.

Quote:

With over 30xBB in there and you with TPTK, I think you'd win more than 7% of the time.

but playing against retarded maniacs, i think i'll call it down. they play aggressive with A4o

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

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