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TylerK
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06-20-2005, 01:42 PM
Post subject: Play fast or slow?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Did raising the flop cost me bets on the turn and river?
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
Preflop: Hero is CO with J , J .
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.
Flop: (13.50 SB) J , 5, 5 (6 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, Button folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.
Turn: (8.75 BB) 2 (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls.
River: (10.75 BB) K (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls.
Final Pot: 12.75 BB
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Looks fine to me. I could see a case made for calling the flop and raising the turn, but I don't think there is any more value from one play than the other.
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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I'd raise the flop also. If you call the flop then you put yourself in the same situation on the turn, and they are much more likely to call two flop bets cold than two turn bets. You got unlucky this time but I think it's usual to get at least one cold-caller on this flop.
Also the other players are less likely to give you respect for a huge hand since you raised preflop therefore could be raising the flop light.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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It depends on the table structure. If you have a lot of TAGs or Rocks with position on you, then I would call the flop and raise the turn. If you have some Loose passives or calling stations behind you then I would raise.
With no read, its a default raise here but calling makes sense too.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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*nods*, that Jeff guy plays goot.
6 way with 13sb in the pot, slow playing doesn't have a whole lot of merit.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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I hate to disagree so strongly with jeff and fnord, but I think this is one of the best examples of a perfect spot to slowplay that I have ever seen. It's all about your position ... you act immediately after the bettor, and by raising, are forcing 4 players after you to either cold call 2 or fold. With a board like that, probably everyone is folding. If 2 of those 4 call 1 bet, you have the same money in the pot as a raise with a lot more potential money for the turn or river ... and if you are really lucky, someone will hit something and pay you off big. With so little risk (only 55 beats you now, and the only other thing you might fear is a higher pp with 2 outs and those hands probably would have 3bet the flop) you are free to slowplay for potential huge reward. In a nutshell, I think the slowplay gets you at least as much as the raise in worst case, and potentially much more ... what's an easier decision than that?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
I hate to disagree so strongly with jeff and fnord, but I think this is one of the best examples of a perfect spot to slowplay that I have ever seen.
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Not really, the pot is big and we're multi-way.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
by raising, are forcing 4 players after you to either cold call 2 or fold. With a board like that, probably everyone is folding.
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LMAO.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
I hate to disagree so strongly with jeff and fnord, but I think this is one of the best examples of a perfect spot to slowplay that I have ever seen.
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Not really, the pot is big and we're multi-way.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
by raising, are forcing 4 players after you to either cold call 2 or fold. With a board like that, probably everyone is folding.
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LMAO. |
I think at the very least people are "more likely" to fold to 2 cold on this board. Still I went with the TOP approach (I think, maybe this is SSH) that when the pot is large, deception has little value.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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i don't like this raise. the board is too uncoordinated that everyone needs some help catch up with a 2nd best hand.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Am I the only one that thinks the proper answer is 'it depends'? It depends on the stakes, the number and type of players left to act after you etc.
Yes, it's a gamble to not raise the flop in this large, m-w pot, but I've been in situations where I thought a smooth call on the flop would be the better play. I don't run this line often; I almost always raise the flop, but can anyone piece together a solid argument to describe situations where the smooth-call is the better play (certainly smaller pots with less opponents who are very tight is a good example)?
Maybe I'm wrong, and it's just black and white; you should just do whatever you can to win the big pots without worrying about trying to trap players for more bets. Maybe running the occasional smooth call line is a leak in my game ... If so, please explain why so that I can talk myself into always running the raise the flop line of play. I've read SSH may times so I'm completely familiar with the "it's a big disaster to fail to protect your hand in a large pot" argument and I should STFU. 
In a higher stakes game where there's only tighties left to act after me, I might smooth call the flop , go for the over-calls and then go for a check-raise on the turn. Yes, I fully admit this line of play has risks, .... the large the pot the more risky, but the smooth call does has some merit in some situations, no?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
Am I the only one that thinks the proper answer is 'it depends'? It depends on the stakes, the number and type of players left to act after you etc.
Yes, it's a gamble to not raise the flop in this large, m-w pot, but I've been in situations where I thought a smooth call on the flop would be the better play. I don't run this line often; I almost always raise the flop, but can anyone piece together a solid argument to describe situations where the smooth-call is the better play (certainly smaller pots with less opponents who are very tight is a good example)?
Maybe I'm wrong, and it's just black and white; you should just do whatever you can to win the big pots without worrying about trying to trap players for more bets. Maybe running the occasional smooth call line is a leak in my game ... If so, please explain why so that I can talk myself into always running the raise the flop line of play. I've read SSH may times so I'm completely familiar with the "it's a big disaster to fail to protect your hand in a large pot" argument and I should STFU.
In a higher stakes game where there's only tighties left to act after me, I might smooth call the flop , go for the over-calls and then go for a check-raise on the turn. Yes, I fully admit this line of play has risks, .... the large the pot the more risky, but the smooth call does has some merit in some situations, no? |
Did you not read what I wrote above?
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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I hardly ever slowplay, but I probably would in this case. You don't have the immortal nuts, but with AA, KK, and QQ ruled out due to preflop action, you have little fear of losing this hand. Your biggest fear is a one outer. Most hands you're up against in this spot need runner runner to beat you. BTW, I'm never checking this flop, but I will let someone bet my hand for me.
At worst, I think calling the flop intending to raise the turn loses 1 SB occasionally, but it gains 1 SB and more often enough to compensate.
I would really like to keep medium and small pocket pairs in this hand and hope they hit a set on the turn.
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Poker is freedom
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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*nods head* yeah, reads are everything here. I don't think slow play is wrong, it's just not a *perfect* spot to slow play because there is a pretty good pot going and you're 6 way. Both are very good reasons not to slow play. Ideal slow play is when you flop a big hand 2 or 3 way in an unraised pot against players unlikely to call but likely to stab at the pot.
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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I don't fear any hand in this spot. I play for overcalls. I'm going to try to get the most out of this almost unbeatable hand. I'm more than happy to have them stick around.
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"A lot of fortunes are made on what you don't play."--"Miami" John Cernuto
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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If MP3 wants to spew chips though I'm all for giving him the chance...
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