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DrivingDog
Old 01-30-2008, 11:34 PM     Post subject: Play it again, Sam #1 (permalink)  
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My image is pretty solid here. I've been showing down mostly good hands. Both villians are fairly standard TAGs. CO has been 3betting me a lot since I beat him out of a couple of big pots, so he could be raising light. Not clear on what BB's capping range is but it might be TT+, AQ+, AJs+, maybe KQs

PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7, 7.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB caps, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 7, 3, 7 (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 9 (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (10.75 BB) A (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, CO folds,

BB says: AK?
Dog says: no

BB calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

Should i be raising the flop or turn here or hoping for overcalls/a raise behind me?
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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DrivingDog
Old 01-30-2008, 11:37 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Different table. Villian is pretty tight pre and post-flop. A 3bet from the SB from him usually means AT+, A8s+, KQ, 66+, something like that.

PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, K.
2 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T, 4, 8 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 6 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 3 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14.5 BB

yes I am the luckiest sob around. But should I be raising the turn here? I think i should have this time because it might look like a semi-bluff, and get 3bet by a strong hand. On the other hand if he's whiffed completely he might get away cheap. Also I want to mess with my opponent's brains every chance I get...
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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KoRnholio
Old 01-31-2008, 12:09 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1 I like the call on the turn simply for the fact that CO could well be sandbagging a big pair on the flop. If so, he is going to pop the turn and you can 3bet it and no one will be folding A raise on the turn might shut him out, and if he has a hand like AQ/AK, we want him to pair the river.

Hand 2 I usually just pop the turn, mostly because I would do that with a lot of other hands to "protect" against the 4th club coming.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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dsaxton
Old 02-03-2008, 03:18 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I think you should be raising the flop or turn in both of these hands. Part of the reason is what kornholio was hinting at; you want to be able to make this play with weaker hands without your opponents knowing that you're weak. The main reason, however, is just to get action.

Whether you raise the flop or turn depends, I think, on their specific postflop tendencies and how they interpret your postflop play.
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DrivingDog
Old 02-03-2008, 07:22 PM #5 (permalink)  
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It's all opponent-dependent and metagame. I wouldn't slowplay against a LAG, for example. Like this guy (sorry converter is out of whack).

Villian is 60/30/2.5. My image is TAG though I think he's been too busy hitting the raise button to notice anyone else at the table.

POKERSTARS GAME #15034391295: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($10/$20) - 2008/02/03 - 14:36:01 (ET)
Table 'Jokaste II' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: puccininy ($959 in chips)
Seat 2: chipscoooper ($284 in chips)
Seat 3: vucyh ($692.50 in chips)
Seat 4: sbfd32 ($770 in chips)
Seat 5: DrivingDog ($1109 in chips)
Seat 6: vadinho ($520 in chips)
vadinho: posts small blind $5
puccininy: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrivingDog [7c 7s]
chipscoooper: folds
vucyh: folds
sbfd32: raises $10 to $20
DrivingDog: raises $10 to $30
vadinho: folds
puccininy: folds
sbfd32: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [4c 7h Qh]
sbfd32: bets $10
DrivingDog: raises $10 to $20
sbfd32: raises $10 to $30
DrivingDog: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
sbfd32: calls $10
*** TURN *** [4c 7h Qh] [5s]
sbfd32: bets $20
DrivingDog: raises $20 to $40
sbfd32: raises $20 to $60
DrivingDog: raises $20 to $80
Betting is capped
sbfd32: calls $20
*** RIVER *** [4c 7h Qh 5s] [Qs]
sbfd32: checks
DrivingDog: bets $20
sbfd32: calls $20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DrivingDog: shows [7c 7s] (a full house, Sevens full of Queens)
sbfd32: mucks hand
DrivingDog collected $352 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $355 | Rake $3
Board [4c 7h Qh 5s Qs]
Seat 1: puccininy (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: chipscoooper folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: vucyh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: sbfd32 mucked [5h As]
Seat 5: DrivingDog (button) showed [7c 7s] and won ($352) with a full house, Sevens full of Queens
Seat 6: vadinho (small blind) folded before Flop



same villian, about 20 hands later...


POKERSTARS GAME #15035042648: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($10/$20) - 2008/02/03 - 15:02:22 (ET)
Table 'Jokaste II' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: puccininy ($541 in chips)
Seat 2: chipscoooper ($217 in chips)
Seat 4: sbfd32 ($1332.50 in chips)
Seat 5: DrivingDog ($1482.50 in chips)
Seat 6: vadinho ($652.50 in chips)
love4faith will be allowed to play after the button
sbfd32: posts small blind $5
DrivingDog: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrivingDog [8c 8s]
vadinho: folds
vadinho leaves the table
puccininy: raises $10 to $20
chipscoooper: folds
sbfd32: raises $10 to $30
DrivingDog: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
puccininy: folds
sbfd32: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [Ks 9h 3h]
sbfd32: bets $10
DrivingDog: calls $10
*** TURN *** [Ks 9h 3h] [2c]
sbfd32: bets $20
DrivingDog: raises $20 to $40
sbfd32: raises $20 to $60
DrivingDog: calls $20
*** RIVER *** [Ks 9h 3h 2c] [5d]
sbfd32: bets $20
DrivingDog: calls $20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sbfd32: shows [Tc Jh] (high card King)
DrivingDog: shows [8c 8s] (a pair of Eights)
DrivingDog collected $278 from pot
love4faith leaves the table
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $280 | Rake $2
Board [Ks 9h 3h 2c 5d]
Seat 1: puccininy folded before Flop
Seat 2: chipscoooper (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: sbfd32 (small blind) showed [Tc Jh] and lost with high card King
Seat 5: DrivingDog (big blind) showed [8c 8s] and won ($278) with a pair of Eights
Seat 6: vadinho folded before Flop (didn't bet)


But if someone is going to stop betting or fold to a raise i see nothing wrong with slowplaying to the river. It also has the nice feature that it will often be perceived as a bluff and you can sometimes get in a cap (like hand 1 in op). Also discourages future 2 and 3-barrelling.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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dsaxton
Old 02-03-2008, 10:03 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
But if someone is going to stop betting or fold to a raise i see nothing wrong with slowplaying to the river. It also has the nice feature that it will often be perceived as a bluff and you can sometimes get in a cap (like hand 1 in op). Also discourages future 2 and 3-barrelling.
He might actually have a hand, so you don't know that he'll stop betting or fold if you raise.
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DrivingDog
Old 02-03-2008, 11:09 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I think we've had this debate before, dsaxton. I know you like to fastplay your good hands. I respect that, and I know there's lots of times when it gets you more profit. All i'm saying is sometimes slowplaying can also get you more profit, and it can be a way to mix up your game and make you harder to read.

The question to me is what are the correct situations in which to do so. If you think 'never', well that's fine. I'm just looking for another angle on the subject.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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dsaxton
Old 02-04-2008, 03:42 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Well, waiting for the turn to raise would be considered a slow-play, which I often do. I just think that, as opposed to waiting for the turn, waiting for the river in general wins only a little bit more from his weakest hands, but loses a lot more against his strongest, making it an overall loser in terms of immediate expectation.

I'm not suggesting, however, that it should never be done. I can imagine there being circumstances that might make it worthwhile to do on occasion. Perhaps to combat a player who value bets the river very aggressively when you've shown weakness on the turn. However, in your initial post, you didn't mention any reads that might warrant these plays.
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Fnord
Old 02-04-2008, 06:10 AM #9 (permalink)  
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You need to play these hands faster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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arborman
Old 02-05-2008, 07:31 PM #10 (permalink)  
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This level is way beyond me, and I don't play 6max, but as I read them I was wondering why you weren't raising.
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Hermann the Lombard
Old 02-06-2008, 08:22 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
You need to play these hands faster.
Agreed, but when would you first raise on these? Flop, turn, or mix 'em up?
Oh, no! Not another learning experience!
 
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NWNewell
Old 02-07-2008, 02:54 AM #12 (permalink)  
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A TAG BB's capping range is not that loose. Being OOP to two players. He almost certainly has AK, AA-JJ (maybe TT).

I raise the flop and probably only call a 3-bet. Then when BB leads the turn, I raise-cap.
My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.
 
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DrivingDog
Old 02-07-2008, 08:45 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWNewell
A TAG BB's capping range is not that loose. Being OOP to two players. He almost certainly has AK, AA-JJ (maybe TT).

I raise the flop and probably only call a 3-bet. Then when BB leads the turn, I raise-cap.
You missed the bit where I talked about CO 3betting me habitually. Try another range.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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dsaxton
Old 02-07-2008, 10:26 PM #14 (permalink)  
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dsaxton
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWNewell
A TAG BB's capping range is not that loose. Being OOP to two players. He almost certainly has AK, AA-JJ (maybe TT).

I raise the flop and probably only call a 3-bet. Then when BB leads the turn, I raise-cap.
You missed the bit where I talked about CO 3betting me habitually. Try another range.
Some information on how he plays the river in these situations would probably be useful in deciding whether or not you should be slow-playing all the way to this street. Absent very specific postflop reads, I just make the "standard" play of either raising the flop or turn.
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