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Chopper

01-03-2009, 04:02 PM Post subject: plan for flop?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i want to know how to play the flop the best. i feel that i cant count on these passives to do any betting behind me, but do i really want that?

if i check, planning to raise...but everyone calls around, then i am kind of screwed. i thought about waiting for the turn to bet, and think that may have been best. i have a weak kicker and dont want A9 to call my flop lead. i have only a bd draw. but, i have TP and no overcards can beat my one pair hand. however, i hate giving free cards on any board in passive games, too.

if i check the flop, it checks around, and an early player leads the turn, do i raise? i think i have to there.

or, did i just play it fine for the situation?

what is the best plan? opinions DEMANDED! lol.

0.25/0.5 Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($21.35)
UTG+1 ($7.70)
MP1 ($7.20)
MP2 ($23.45)
MP3 ($11.05)
CO ($10.25)
BTN ($9.90)
SB ($13.75)
BB ($7.45)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 9 players) Hero is UTG

Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB checks

Flop:

(6.0 SB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB folds, BB folds

Turn:

(4.5 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls

River:

(7.5 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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Chopper

01-03-2009, 04:12 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

and, if anyone cares to really dive in deep, i would like to learn how to calculate the math for some of these decisions. i would like to see if leading out on the flop or waiting for the turn to lead is the more profitable play....and by how much.

my guess is that they are fairly close, and probably not worth worrying too much about...at this level, as there are larger "edges" to be had elsewhere for sure.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Lance

01-03-2009, 07:56 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 210

my line:
check the flop.....if some1 bets except the button i fold (we assume that button bets with anything).
If button bets i would c/c turn and call down when i dont see any aggression from any1 else.
If nobody bets on the flop i lead the turn...no matter turn card

In chopper's line i am often beaten by A7+ with investing too much money.

I just hate kicker problems.........

Chopper

01-04-2009, 03:21 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance

this is what i worry about. if i check, someone bets their 99 and all of a sudden, i think i am outkicked. i need a bet and a caller before i even think about bailing this early with TP. but, i would like to know if 2pr or TPbetterK is out there. problem is, they wont necessarily raise my lead.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Lance

01-04-2009, 04:04 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 210

Quote:

U decided to play A4s UTG coz u know that u play against loose passive players and i dont assume that a passive player bets with 99 on ace board.

imho A4s UTG is too loose

asdpikas

01-04-2009, 05:54 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

fold PF

Postflop, i would just lead every street. If i get raised at any point, i'm probably done with the hand.

leading is much better than playing passive against LPs because they tend to call down light and wont raise you as a bluff/semibluff/free card play... Thus you wont be folding the best hand often, and u'll get full value when ahead, charging any draws, while losing about the same if outkicked. That's a good trade

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

KoRnholio

01-04-2009, 08:29 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

PF is fine in a loose passive game like that. I check that pretty dry flop almost always. Then when you lead the turn you get all sorts of spite "he doesn't have an ace, he didn't bet the flop!" calls.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Chopper

01-04-2009, 11:06 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

U decided to play A4s UTG coz u know that u play against loose passive players and i dont assume that a passive player bets with 99 on ace board.

imho A4s UTG is too loose

not to pick on you, but AXs from ep is straight out of Miller/Sklansky. its ideal for big pots with big draws in passive games that take 4+ players to flops w/o a lot of preflop raising. thats why i played it.

however, it gets caught in a tough spot when it flops the damned A and hangs your ass out there oop in a multiway pot with hardly a backdoor redraw to stand on. thats where post flop skill becomes your guide.

you are basically limping this thing in hopes of getting into the flop with one bet, hopefully two, and hitting a four flush on the flop in a decent pot worth chasing down.....as long as it stays one bet at a time. and, enough of those exact situations arise in these games to make A4s a rather profitable hand....not to mention the distraction it causes anyone at the table with two brain cells bouncing around in their head.

asd....lol....you play too high for this stinkshit of a hand, so i'd expect nothing less from you. if i play 1/2+, i dont think this is in my range very often anymore, either.

korn...i agree with the "he dont have the A, he'd have bet the flop" line of thinking, but can we take that chance with this many people taking the flop? or, do we need to get to protecting the best way we can...since our 4 sucks donkey balls?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Ragnar4

01-04-2009, 11:14 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

however, it gets caught in a tough spot when it flops the damned A and hangs your ass out there oop in a multiway pot with hardly a backdoor redraw to stand on. thats where post flop skill becomes your guide.

I also believe that sklansky/miller are very vociferous when they argue that you shouldn't bet this board, but instead wait till the turn to bet the board, and be *very* willing to lay down without proper odds to draw and position.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

Sheetah

01-04-2009, 11:15 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 278

Fold PF, even in loose passive game ... although it's close.
As played:
- I bet the flop cause there are some straight draws and I don't expect that loose passive is ever folding a pair here
- turn is close between betting and checking for deception purposes - anyone who paired a ten will feel pretty confident betting
- I bet river for value cause I don't expect pair of queens to ever fold here (and possibly tens)

during the process ^^^ I'm praying hard

bigspenda73

01-04-2009, 11:30 PM

#11 (permalink)

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river bet seems optimistic I might c/f but prolly c/c

Chopper

01-04-2009, 11:32 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Location: St. Louis, MO

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

agreed 100%. and, that is why i got my ass hung out there. and, why i posted the hand. i'm glad you pointed it out.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

01-04-2009, 11:36 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

river bet seems optimistic I might c/f but prolly c/c

in what circumstances would you c/f? i am curious because i cant come up with one, unless i am facing two cold. oh spenda, you surprise me so with your constant search for thinner and thinner value. isnt your mantra, "bet your ass of until you get raised back w/ TP? (at micros)"

sheetah, why are we concerned with "deception?" we are in a game where 88 is calling down and K6, etc. i dont think we should pin a T on someone and check there, should we? isnt the calling range of a villain so wide we should be concerned more with value than a specific hand holding? therefore, shouldnt we be thinking "value," but fearing the A5+ hands?

sorry to play "devils advocate," guys. i am really just trying to keep the discussion going and get a bit deeper into why we would do what we do with our lines.

i just felt the passive as hell play of villains at this level, and table in particular, would lead to a bet-bet-bet line and only slow down if raised. the reason i asked about waiting for the turn was specifically because of ragnar's point from miller's book.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

bigspenda73

01-04-2009, 11:46 PM

#14 (permalink)

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I mean I'm probably c/c'ing one, never 2, and might not overcall if it goes bet/call/back to me.

River is just really thin as they're going to have a lot of straight draws and such that aren't looking you up and you're going to value town yourself a lot. Turn bet is obv. fine.

Chopper

01-05-2009, 01:24 AM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

so, that wins the "stupidly thin value contest." thanks for a little explanation. so, on the 13th, just fold when i bet....since it wont be that 'thin' again...lol.

hey, if turn bet is standard, to you, then, i can only assume you are leading this flop, too?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Ragnar4

01-05-2009, 02:16 AM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

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Location: Billings, Montana

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I think that turn bet is standard only because he made it to the turn when everyone checked behind.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

bigspenda73

01-05-2009, 02:41 AM

#17 (permalink)

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who said I checked the flop

turn is very standard once they each just flat flop

Chopper

01-05-2009, 01:14 PM

#18 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

who said I checked the flop

turn is very standard once they each just flat flop

just curious since that was my original question. i led and led. but, miller/sklansky would probably prefer to check and lead since there are players to act and our kicker is so bad on a rather dryish flop.

i am still not comfortable leading the flop, but i think it's likely the better play, if we play the hand at all. i just dont see checking the flop into 6 others being a good play with TP in a limped pot.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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