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phil hellmuths advice for limit hold-em

  
 
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wylted82
Old 03-11-2009, 02:30 AM     Post subject: phil hellmuths advice for limit hold-em #1 (permalink)  

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i was reading phil hellmuths book entitled texas holdem he said when u play small stakes online you can be profitable just playing his top ten hands 77-AA AK AQ i think maybe in micro stakes but once you go up to the .50-1.00 level this would be incorrect anyone have any oppinions on this
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asdpikas
Old 03-11-2009, 02:40 AM #2 (permalink)  
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totally incorrect beyond the micros, and even there you are giving up tons of profit by playing so tight.

SSHE by Sklansky/Miller gives a very good picture on playing micros
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lefty the llama
Old 03-11-2009, 02:50 AM #3 (permalink)  

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lefty the llama
This should work even higher. No one will be paying attention until at least 3/6 (at Stars anyway). (This is all just imo).

These hands represent the vast majority of profit for LHE players (in terms of contribution to winrate in BB). Playing the rest of the +EV hands would indeed MAXIMIZE one's winrate, but one could not go wrong playing the top 10 hands (assuming good postflop play). It would seem that playing lesser hands is only necessary in order to shake a nitty image in a higher game where players actually have HUDs and/or pay attention.

By the way, I'm Lefty, the new guy. Cheers.

EDIT:

After reading asd's post, yes I agree that you are giving up lots of potential profit. But you should still be somewhat profitable even into 3/6. I don't advocate this strategy in the slightest, mind you!
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Airles™
Old 03-11-2009, 03:44 AM #4 (permalink)  
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You are not only giving up a huge amount of profit but you will be giving up a huge amount of rake as well. It will be hard to break even since you're bound to lose a handful of those premiums. I'm a tight player at FL (approx. 12/8) but I can't imagine ever playing that tight.
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asdpikas
Old 03-11-2009, 08:16 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty the llama
This should work even higher. No one will be paying attention until at least 3/6 (at Stars anyway). (This is all just imo).

These hands represent the vast majority of profit for LHE players (in terms of contribution to winrate in BB). Playing the rest of the +EV hands would indeed MAXIMIZE one's winrate, but one could not go wrong playing the top 10 hands (assuming good postflop play). It would seem that playing lesser hands is only necessary in order to shake a nitty image in a higher game where players actually have HUDs and/or pay attention.

By the way, I'm Lefty, the new guy. Cheers.

EDIT:

After reading asd's post, yes I agree that you are giving up lots of potential profit. But you should still be somewhat profitable even into 3/6. I don't advocate this strategy in the slightest, mind you!
welcome lefty!

I dont agree that ppl dont notice. While it is true that most villains dont pay too much attention to recent history/image and dont bother to take notes and play exploitive poker, nowadays most players 1/2 or higher have a HUD (even at lower stakes many do too). So you will profit until your stats show up in their HUD 8/8/3 over 200 hands, and they stop giving any action.
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lefty the llama
Old 03-11-2009, 05:00 PM #6 (permalink)  

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lefty the llama
I am only making what would amount to a guess, since I'm only playing .25/.50 (played .50/1 before) at this point until I can get a good winrate going over like 50k hands. Right now I'm running sick hot at 10 BB/100 LOL. Expect that to drop to around 2-3.
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Chopper
Old 03-11-2009, 06:35 PM #7 (permalink)  
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believe me people will notice.

if you play only 10 of the 169 hand possibilities, you will play about 6% of your hands. you will fold 94% of the time, and when you play, you will likely raise.

you know what happens if i see a guy raise that hasnt raised, or played, a hand for 10 minutes? i fold.

a large percentage of the time you will fold the table off. those that call probably wont hit much that pays you off. if they do give you a lot of action, your AA is probably meat sticks a decent portion of the time.

you have to play more hands just to get your really good ones paid off. people have to think there is a small chance you could hold some pretty crappy cards before they will do anything other than call your betting.

and, if they only call your betting, you will have a very hard time beating the house's rake if you only play 6% of your hands.....in the limit structure.

go buy pokertracker and play 20,000 hands of 6% poker. show us your results. if you can beat more than 1 big bet per hour, we will all eat our words.

and, welcome.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Chopper
Old 03-11-2009, 06:38 PM #8 (permalink)  
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that said, if you go play only the Top 14 starting hands in a small stakes (<10NL) game, you will likely show a decent profit over there because you can punish players harder with bigger bets and raises.

limit will never allow you to take a big chunk of money with super big cards....even when they are up against other great cards. its just the nature of the game.

but, who am i to argue with Phil?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 03-11-2009, 06:53 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
but, who am i to argue with Phil?
U are Da Chops! A much tougher player all around!
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Chopper
Old 03-11-2009, 07:18 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
but, who am i to argue with Phil?
U are Da Chops! A much tougher player all around!
but, i whine goot.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 03-11-2009, 07:21 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
but, who am i to argue with Phil?
U are Da Chops! A much tougher player all around!
but, i whine goot.
I'm sorry, dude. Nobody beats Phil in the whining game, you gotta give it to him, best in the world at ranting and whining...
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LawDude
Old 03-11-2009, 07:51 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Hellmuth learned poker in college, where he would play in these incredibly loose games where nobody is reading anyone's hands or processing any information. (Plus, there was no rake.) In that environment, he could just abuse people by waiting for good pocket pairs or Ace-King and then crushing them.

Indeed, if you find yourself in a game with a low rake where players don't process information even when they are up against a really tight player, I would say that this could be a very profitable strategy. But the problem is as your game gets farther and farther away from that, this strategy gets less and less effective, for the reasons the other posters have stated.

I have another problem with Hellmuth, actually. He basically recommends 2- and 3- and 4- betting your narrow range of playable hands not only pre-flop but on the flop as well, making the turn the decision point. I think that's AWFUL advice for beginners. Beginners have to get in the habit of relating their hand strength to the flop as well as to all the other players and their actions. For instance, if 2 tight players re-raise and cap my pre-flop raise when I have 99, I am probably behind, and even if I decide to see the flop (which may not be a great decision), a continuation bet or raise on the flop would probably be throwing my money away unless I hit a set or a big draw. Being willing and able to lay down big hands that don't hold up after the flop when it is clear you are beat is a very important aspect of one's game, and Hellmuth's method would have you chasing pots with 2 outs at least through the flop a good percentage of the time.
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Chopper
Old 03-11-2009, 08:18 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LawDude
Hellmuth learned poker in college, where he would play in these incredibly loose games where nobody is reading anyone's hands or processing any information. (Plus, there was no rake.) In that environment, he could just abuse people by waiting for good pocket pairs or Ace-King and then crushing them.

Indeed, if you find yourself in a game with a low rake where players don't process information even when they are up against a really tight player, I would say that this could be a very profitable strategy. But the problem is as your game gets farther and farther away from that, this strategy gets less and less effective, for the reasons the other posters have stated.

I have another problem with Hellmuth, actually. He basically recommends 2- and 3- and 4- betting your narrow range of playable hands not only pre-flop but on the flop as well, making the turn the decision point. I think that's AWFUL advice for beginners. Beginners have to get in the habit of relating their hand strength to the flop as well as to all the other players and their actions. For instance, if 2 tight players re-raise and cap my pre-flop raise when I have 99, I am probably behind, and even if I decide to see the flop (which may not be a great decision), a continuation bet or raise on the flop would probably be throwing my money away unless I hit a set or a big draw. Being willing and able to lay down big hands that don't hold up after the flop when it is clear you are beat is a very important aspect of one's game, and Hellmuth's method would have you chasing pots with 2 outs at least through the flop a good percentage of the time.
all of which is great advice even for MY home games. my players are not much more than college penny-nickel-dime junkies.

but, the same philosophy is why the players Hellmuth hangs with now....the elite.....consider him a cash game donkey.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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KoRnholio
Old 03-11-2009, 09:22 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I agree with pretty much all that is said about Phil. But he *does* take the donks to value town pretty well. And in recent tournies getting all the dead money chips is very valuable.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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