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passive preflop play on pokerstars

  
 
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fishstick
Old 11-11-2004, 09:39 PM     Post subject: passive preflop play on pokerstars #1 (permalink)  
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lately, i've been playing stars almost exclusively (limit and no limit) and have been running into situations where i'm losing hands because i'm getting outkicked on my top pair.

i'm seeing a lot of people (in my hands and hands i'm not involved in) not raising preflop with AK and AQ (suited or not).

here what happens:

- limped to me on the button with AQ or AJ suited - i raise preflop
- uncoordinated, rainbow flop with an Ace - i bet/raise and get called
- i bet the turn and get called
- i bet the river and get called

showdown = my AQ vs their AK

how to deal with preflop/calling passivity? it makes it very hard to put someone on a hand. i usually expect this type of behavior from someone that has top pair-bad kicker.
i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...
 
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lonnie
Old 11-11-2004, 09:42 PM #2 (permalink)  
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What limit is this at?
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fishstick
Old 11-11-2004, 10:05 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhoney2
What limit is this at?
limit: i've actually seen more of it at 1/2 and 2/4. at .50/1, they'd be raising.

the other night playing 1/2 limit at stars, i watched someone not raise preflop with QQ on the button, and only call bets on the flop, turn, river (non-threatening board) until they won the showdown!

no limit: .10/.25 level
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LeFou
Old 11-11-2004, 10:47 PM     Post subject: Re: passive preflop play on pokerstars #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishstick
how to deal with preflop/calling passivity? it makes it very hard to put someone on a hand. i usually expect this type of behavior from someone that has top pair-bad kicker.
Loosen up a bit. Draw out on them. In other words, get fishy. See how the other half lives

Seems like you're getting free/cheap cards to crack them and there's not much to complain about.
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koolmoe
Old 11-12-2004, 01:34 AM #5 (permalink)  
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When a passive player calls, he often has top pair or better. Take more free cards if they're offered.
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lonnie
Old 11-12-2004, 01:53 AM #6 (permalink)  
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In the example given, AQ with Axx uncoordinated - you're just going to have to lose money to the passive AK. I think I would find a better game where the opps want to gamble a little more. Gamblers make big pots. The passive rocks at PokerStars are very beatable, but it's not near as much fun. You don't get near as much action, and your BB/100 will suffer. This is my experience playing .50/1.00 there.
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Fnord
Old 11-12-2004, 11:54 AM #7 (permalink)  
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A couple thoughts:

o Be less inclined to raise tight limpers with marginal holdings. Even consider mucking some offsuit dominated hands you might otherwise play.

o Passive players are easy to take free cards from, steal, laydown to and they don't extract enough value out of their hands. Taking their money just requires different tactics than playing against our bread & butter loose/passive opponents.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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fishstick
Old 11-12-2004, 04:59 PM #8 (permalink)  
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thank for the insights - some good suggestions. i think i will take a little more advantage of free cards, be a little slower in my betting raising when dealing with the passives.

here's an example from last night where a loose preflop call worked out nicely!

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: fishstick is MP1 with J, K.
Bamm^2 folds, UTG+1 folds, fishstick calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9, 7, Q (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, fishstick calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 5 (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, fishstick calls, SB folds.

River: (6 BB) 2 (2 players)
BB checks, fishstick bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Results in white below:
BB has Kd Kh (one pair, kings).
UTG doesn't show.
fishstick has Jh Ks (flush, king high).
Outcome: fishstick wins 8 BB.
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zenbitz
Old 11-12-2004, 06:35 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Heck, on a L/P table I might open raise KJos. Reasoning is that the odds of someone downstream reraising you are minimal, and if they do you can lay it down. Note that if a good player was down stream, I would probably muck it, not call.

On the minus side, you can get trapped. if the flop was Kd spade spade, you would certinaly bet out, and be a big dog. Plus a true passive will just call you down with the set of Ks!
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fishstick
Old 11-12-2004, 08:44 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbitz
Heck, on a L/P table I might open raise KJos. Reasoning is that the odds of someone downstream reraising you are minimal, and if they do you can lay it down. Note that if a good player was down stream, I would probably muck it, not call.

On the minus side, you can get trapped. if the flop was Kd spade spade, you would certinaly bet out, and be a big dog. Plus a true passive will just call you down with the set of Ks!
in mp1, i don't really like to raise a hand that i'm not happy to 3-bet, hence the limp. and i agree, on a full "action" table, kj off is a muck from mp1.

the interesting question, if i had raised, would the BB (with KK) have even reraised me...
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