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passive plays, yay or nay?

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midas06

05-22-2006, 06:24 AM Post subject: passive plays, yay or nay?

#1 (permalink)

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Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with 9

UTG calls, Button folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 8

(3SB, 3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: 2

(3BB, 3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG folds.

River: T

(5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9BB

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with T

3 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: A

(3.33SB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: 5

(2.67BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: 5

(4.67BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 6.67BB

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elipsesjeff

05-22-2006, 06:32 AM

#2 (permalink)

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looks good.

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Xanadu

05-22-2006, 02:27 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Miffed22001

05-22-2006, 03:39 PM

#4 (permalink)

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if you could put sb on an ace in hand 1 id have raised the turn

LimpinAintEZ

05-22-2006, 04:50 PM

#5 (permalink)

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i would have raised the turn in hand 1 - on the river, playing limit - Hand 2 I like, if you think the guy is overplaying a weak hand. that is when you want to call him down with 2nd pair - My personal history is I have lost too much money defending with that kind of hand - I don't mind giving up my BB to some aggressiveness sometimes - MAINLY because they start to think they can push me everytime and the 1 BB I give up once, will cause them to lose a big pot later - I lose a lot when I just call down with a pair of 10's there - The flush card hit turn if he had that, and an Ace you are way behind - I either raise the flop to see whats up, or just fold to the steal - you want to defend blind steals with cards that do well heads up - Like Kx, Ax etc - 10,7 off isn't a good defending hand -

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elipsesjeff

05-22-2006, 04:50 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

if you could put sb on an ace in hand 1 id have raised the turn

obv, but there is no way to put anyone on anything in an unraised pot and he is from the blinds.

Also, his kicker blows ass, and he may get bet/3bet by a better hand on the turn but not so much on the river.

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Xanadu

05-22-2006, 05:08 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

I either raise the flop to see whats up, or just fold to the steal - you want to defend blind steals with cards that do well heads up - Like Kx, Ax etc - 10,7 off isn't a good defending hand -

T7 may not be a good defending hand, but for me, it is an adequate defending hand, especially when you know it's heads-up. By adequate, I mean that you will lose less by calling and hoping to catch on the flop than by forfeiting your BB. Especially against an aggressive stealer who will fire every round no matter what, you must call with a hand like T7 preflop. All you have to do is call down when you catch part of the flop and fold when you miss. I have had a lot of success with this 'passive defense'. I will defend here (and also when the Button raises and SB folds) with any 2 cards 7 or higher. If you have 2 cards 7 or higher, your hand will definitely be worth the 3:1 call preflop against the range of hands that an aggressive stealer will have.

thenonsequitur

05-22-2006, 06:27 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Hand 1 I like. If you raised before the river you'd be taking the rope away from 'em. And that wouldn't be fair, because they need that rope to hang themselves.

I personally though Hand 2 was standard too, but I guess the discussion over it means it isn't necessarily standard for everyone. In any case, I play it that way.

euphoricism

05-22-2006, 06:40 PM

#9 (permalink)

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looks good to me.

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LimpinAintEZ

05-22-2006, 06:50 PM

#10 (permalink)

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[quote="thenonsequitur"]Hand 1 I like. If you raised before the river you'd be taking the rope away from 'em. And that wouldn't be fair, because they need that rope to hang themselves.

You have 2 players calling the flop bet and the SB keeps firing. I think your Trip aces are nice, but not exactly a lock (kicker sucks) - The 3rd players folded to SB turn bet and Hero call, so you lost that bet anyway - If SB has an Ace, he will call no matter what - So lets see....You got SB to call river raise so you got Turn and 2 bets on end for 3 total bets - If you raise turn and bet river (assuming he checks to you) you get the same 3 bets...But by not raising the Turn, you MIGHT get the 3rd player to still call at least 1 more bet (didn't happen anyway, but it might against plenty of calling stations/maniac chasers) - Maybe calling turn is the right play. The problem I see is that when you raise the river, you have to call another bet when your behind...(assuming he has a boat) - I like to raise the turn because i've also had plenty of times where I was ahead on the flop and turn only to get sucked out on the river. His trip Aces are nice, but it's not a lock - If SB bets river also, I would put him on a Big Pair (hoping you don't have the ace)

so this might be for another topic - But where do you draw the line between being aggressive enough, to being too passive? In Limit I raise this hand, and do it on the turn...My thinking is I will not let them catch their card at the river for cheap when i'm ahead - Also, if they re-raise me here, I will just call the river thinking I might be beat (again, trip aces here nice but if you get re-raised on turn you pretty much know your against a bigger ace or a boat) - but maybe that doesn't make sense because I'm paying the same 3 bets whether im ahead or behind - but you can't just call turn and river here, can you? That seems way TOO passive IMO - this hand just isn't strong enough to raise the river like you've got a lock -

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elipsesjeff

05-22-2006, 07:01 PM

#11 (permalink)

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1) what possible hand could opponent have to draw out on you? a 2 outer? I dont want him to fold it and would prefer for him to put his money in when way behind. He also doesn't put you on an Ace

2) how can you put him on a big pair, no raise preflop, no reads?

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chardrian

05-22-2006, 07:24 PM

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Seems standard to me.

hand 1) there is no reason to raise the turn. You want the overcall.

The only way I *might* have played differently is that I will often raise preflop with A9 4 handed. But since he was the BB here, I usually will take the free flop.

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Xanadu

05-22-2006, 08:15 PM

#13 (permalink)

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I missed the preflop play on hand 1 when I first looked at this hand. Against most opponents, I raise this. Most people will raise AT+ from any position shorthanded, so chances of domination are small, and any Ace that falls should put you way ahead.

thenonsequitur

05-22-2006, 09:11 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

But by not raising the Turn, you MIGHT get the 3rd player to still call at least 1 more bet (didn't happen anyway, but it might against plenty of calling stations/maniac chasers) - Maybe calling turn is the right play.

Actually, I play it this way heads-up as well. The 3rd person maybe calling is not my primary motivation for calling the turn. My primary motivation is to let a weak hand keep bluffing at me.

If I raise, I might get a weaker hand to fold now or on the river, and will definitely get a nothing hand to fold (reduing my profit by 1 or 2 bets). I certainly don't want that.

The upside to raising the turn is that sometimes a player with a weaker hand will bet the turn and check/call the river, but will call the turn raise and still check/call the river. So in this case you win one more bet. But I think that letting a weaker hand pound at you wins a lot more in the long run than when you win one extra bet in this circumstance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

The problem I see is that when you raise the river, you have to call another bet when your behind...(assuming he has a boat)

I don't see how there is any merit to this argument (unless you are considering folding the turn to a 3-bet, which would be too weak). You have to call another bet if he 3-bets the turn after you raise, just as you would have to call another bet if he 3-bet the river after you raise. In fact, I think it's less likely for a hand that beats you to raise on the river than on the turn, because people tend to respect river raises more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

I like to raise the turn because i've also had plenty of times where I was ahead on the flop and turn only to get sucked out on the river. His trip Aces are nice, but it's not a lock

Your opponent isn't drawing here. If there were a draw out, I might raise the turn to charge a drawing hand. But look at this board. Almost nobody is drawing here. Villian is likely down to 3 outs or fewer. Not only is your hand not not very vulnerable to weaker hands, but it's very likely the best hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

If SB bets river also, I would put him on a Big Pair (hoping you don't have the ace)

An 8, T, medium pair will all bet this river frequently, and there is a decent chance that a SB that was bluffing the flop and turn with not much will follow through with a river bluff. I think the chance of SB having a big pair is very low.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

where do you draw the line between being aggressive enough, to being too passive?

I don't draw lines like this. I think about the different potential plays in a game-tree style thought process and decide which line (line down the game tree that is) works the best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

this hand just isn't strong enough to raise the river like you've got a lock

Ynd you don't need to have a lock to raise the river. Only raising the river with a lock is missing value.

Ltrain

05-22-2006, 09:35 PM

#15 (permalink)

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They both look standard to me; thin call on hand #2, but within a calling range.

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LimpinAintEZ

05-22-2006, 09:48 PM

#16 (permalink)

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i see what you mean nonsequi - do you raise the flop, turn or river in the same circumstance with just TPTK? Or do you call down there? raising on river perhaps? Really in SH limit, any Trip Aces is a great hand - I guess i'm thinking of it as a non monster, when really it is (in that situation, especially) -

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