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overvaluing my hands ??

  
 
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pokerlearner
Old 10-28-2005, 11:11 PM     Post subject: overvaluing my hands ?? #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: california
Posts: 366
pokerlearner
B&M 4-8:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1) Kill pot 8-16

not worried about Button. could have anything..high cards...ace-something, some paint....MP1 is loose passive. plays pretty much a lot of hands

Question: Is it necessary to bet the river?

I wont get calls from a hand that didnt pair up, but will get calls from hands that already beat me or get raised by someone slowplaying... bottomline, I wanna know if the river betting was of any value here ? MP1 raised a kill pot (which loose passive players are very happy to just call and see the flop)...therefore must have had big pockets anyway...

By the river, i only get calls from hands that have me beat (trip jacks, Aces and kings). I sincerely doubt that loose b&M players would raise AK or AQ on a kill pot. is my line reasonable ?

===============
Hero is MP2 with Q-Q

MP1 raises, Hero 3 bets, Button calls, MP1 caps, Hero calls, button calls.

Flop: J-3-5
Hero bets, button calls, MP1 calls

Turn: J-3-5-2
Hero bets, button calls, MP1 calls

River: J-3-5-2-10
Hero bets, button calls, MP1 calls


Button mucks, MP1 shows K-K.
----------------------------------------------------------
Hand 2:

Hero is UTG+2 with 7-7

Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB comletes.

Flop: 5-7-K rainbow
CO bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: 5-7-K-A (2 suit on board)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls

River: 5-7-K-A-6 (no flush completed)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3 bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls

MP2 shows 4-8 suited

to give MP2 credit, he had a backdoor flush draw and gutshot on flop, picked up flush draw on turn..so cant blame him.

however, given B&M players tendencies...who raise mostly with nuts or near nuts...where players like me raise with lots of possiblities, should I have just called his 3 bet on the river . I put him on 2 pair...I KNEW the straight was out there, but just wanted to extract one more bet in case it wasnt...i thought villain was more likely to show other hands on that board than the straight.


was my thinking wrong ? Its not a whine post. I am trying to clear my line of thinking. whining will be for some other day...
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Fnord
Old 10-28-2005, 11:19 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Both of these are SO B&M hands. I'm glad you posted them because at the online 1/2 level and up you just don't see this stuff and it really fucks with your head when trying to read hands.

Hand 1: Well played. KK missed a ton a bets like lots of B&M players do.
Hand 2: Just call the river raise. B&M loose/passives don't like to raise without at least TPTK beat post-flop and everyone has higher raising standards on the river. 3-beting opens you up to a cap, so I would just call heads-up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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KoRnholio
Old 10-29-2005, 12:02 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Hand 1: Well played. KK missed a ton a bets like lots of B&M players do.
I have a love-hate relationship with donks who play big hands like that passively. I had a guy do the same thing to me with a QQ overpair to me at 2/4 online. I had AJ for top pair top kicker and he just kept check-calling after I raised his flop bet. His play saved me money, but I was still mad :P

Quote:
Hand 2: Just call the river raise. B&M loose/passives don't like to raise without at least TPTK beat post-flop and everyone has higher raising standards on the river. 3-beting opens you up to a cap, so I would just call heads-up.
I have very little experience playing B&M, but I would almost always 3bet/call with my set there. There's no obvious straight (well, I suppose B&M a gutshot with 98, 43 or 84 is very possible) so I'd put the bettor on something silly like 76, 56, K6, A6.. maybe even 66.

It depends on my read of the guy though. I booked one 2-hour session at a 3-6 kill game where there was a super passive guy who would chase every possible draw, and I only ever remember raising ONCE on the river (he runner-runnered quads). Even after he hit his wierd straights on the river he ususually just called if there was a bet in front of him. If I was in that hand and the villain was Mr. Super passive mentioned above, I would put him on 89, KK or AA but call the raise in hopes that he had 55 or 66...
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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Fnord
Old 10-29-2005, 12:18 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I thought about it some more. He shows you Ace-rag on this river a lot. I like a 3-bet...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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pokerlearner
Old 10-29-2005, 12:28 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Location: california
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Thanks Fnord....btw, wanted to thank you and other FTR guys. especially for your sticky for beginers about their mistake of "not value betting the river enough .

This has worked wonders for me. in b&m while going through downswing and before that, i started checking down hands when
* 3rd flush card hit
* board too coordinated
* any card paired.

but that sticky cleared my line of thinking. Now I am betting till river unless someone raises me, even if board pairs (but not the top pair on flop). and i get called by far worse hands than what i am worried about..YES i get check raised once a while who know i will keep betting..but time it happens is less comparing to the times when i get called by worse hands like bottom pair, middle pair and these combined with some busted draw...even top pair bad kicker.

Yesterday I had AA on Kill pot...raised it and flop was Q-Q-J and i fired till the river with 3 people in the hand... and won. couldnt do that without reading that sweet line "you dont value bet the river enough".....
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