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overcards in early position

  
 
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gabe
Old 12-31-2004, 12:01 AM     Post subject: overcards in early position #1 (permalink)  
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I can't figure out the best way to play overcards in early position. SSH lists a rule "bet if there is two or less other players, check/call if there is more" but says this is too simple to be useful. What do you guys tend to do? How does it change if you raised preflop, if there are more or less people in the flop, and if the board is coordinated or not?

thanks
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Old 12-31-2004, 12:11 AM #2 (permalink)  
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this kind of question is too situation specific...post some hand histories and we'll help you out
 
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gabe
Old 12-31-2004, 12:56 AM #3 (permalink)  
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prima's format sucks =\

in this first hand, i would probably pre flop raise with AJo, but i am not sure if that changes anything.
hand 1

*** Export for: CodeRedRuleU Game: Texas Holdem Game number: 193130381 ***
Date: 12/28/2004 6:25:27 PM
Game: 193130381: Table: Harley Davidson
Normal Table Fixed Limit 0.25/0.50
Rake: 0.15
Seat: 1 trackmaster
Seat: 2 burkley1
Seat: 3 Xeonrf
Seat: 4 alfatcat (Dealer)
Seat: 5 mi__lu
Seat: 6 CodeRedRuleU [ AS, JC ]
Seat: 7 kiyohara
Seat: 8 zzzZZzzz
Seat: 9 nille63
Seat: 10 jzo

------------------
OpeningBetRound
------------------
mi__lu : Posts small blind 0.12
CodeRedRuleU : Posts big blind 0.25
kiyohara : Folds
zzzZZzzz : Folds
nille63 : Calls for 0.25
jzo : Folds
trackmaster : Calls for 0.25
burkley1 : Calls for 0.25
Xeonrf : Calls for 0.25
alfatcat : Folds
mi__lu : Calls for 0.13
CodeRedRuleU : Checks
------------------
Flop [ 2D, 10D, 6H]
------------------
mi__lu : Checks
CodeRedRuleU : Bets 0.25
nille63 : Folds
trackmaster : Calls for 0.25
burkley1 : Folds
Xeonrf : Raises for 0.50
mi__lu : Folds
CodeRedRuleU : Calls for 0.25
trackmaster : Calls for 0.25
------------------
Turn [ 2D, 10D, 6H, 3S ]
------------------
CodeRedRuleU : Checks
trackmaster : Checks
Xeonrf : Bets 0.50
CodeRedRuleU : Folds
trackmaster : Folds
Xeonrf : Mucks cards


hand 2

*** Export for: CodeRedRuleU Game: Texas Holdem Game number: 192690907 ***
Date: 12/28/2004 5:33:35 AM
Game: 192690907: Table: Wall Painting
Normal Table Fixed Limit 0.25/0.50
Rake: 0.25
Seat: 1 Jarleee
Seat: 2 Yurako
Seat: 3 Little_John
Seat: 4 von_resic
Seat: 5 kremgutt
Seat: 6 Corise
Seat: 7 IBPuma
Seat: 8 yazty (Dealer)
Seat: 9 UBplayer01
Seat: 10 CodeRedRuleU [ KS, AC ]

------------------
OpeningBetRound
------------------
UBplayer01 : Posts small blind 0.12
CodeRedRuleU : Posts big blind 0.25
Jarleee : Folds
Yurako : Calls for 0.25
Little_John : Calls for 0.25
von_resic : Folds
kremgutt : Folds
Corise : Folds
IBPuma : Folds
yazty : Calls for 0.25
UBplayer01 : Calls for 0.13
CodeRedRuleU : Bets 0.25
Yurako : Calls for 0.25
Little_John : Calls for 0.25
yazty : Calls for 0.25
UBplayer01 : Calls for 0.25
------------------
Flop [ 3S, 5C, JH]
------------------
UBplayer01 : Checks
CodeRedRuleU : Bets 0.25
Yurako : Calls for 0.25
Little_John : Folds
yazty : Calls for 0.25
UBplayer01 : Calls for 0.25
------------------
Turn [ 3S, 5C, JH, 4S]
------------------
UBplayer01 : Checks
CodeRedRuleU : Bets 0.50
Yurako : Calls for 0.50
yazty : Calls for 0.50
UBplayer01 : Raises for 1.00
CodeRedRuleU : Calls for 0.50
Yurako : Calls for 0.50
yazty : Folds
------------------
River [ 3S, 5C, JH, 4S, AH ]
------------------
UBplayer01 : Bets 0.50
CodeRedRuleU : Raises for 1.00
Yurako : Folds
UBplayer01 : Raises for 1.00
CodeRedRuleU : Calls for 0.50


edit: i just realized hand 3 is not a good example (i dont have overcards) but critique is welcome anyway!

hand 3

*** Export for: CodeRedRuleU Game: Texas Holdem Game number: 192677503 ***
Date: 12/28/2004 5:06:40 AM
Game: 192677503: Table: Buell Concept
Normal Table Fixed Limit 0.25/0.50
Rake: 0.20
Seat: 1 amuck
Seat: 2 Mattymar
Seat: 3 jschaben (Dealer)
Seat: 4 CodeRedRuleU [ QC, KH ]
Seat: 5 bamawins
Seat: 6 Shanda
Seat: 7 spyda711
Seat: 8 kremgutt
Seat: 10 Dollygirl

------------------
OpeningBetRound
------------------
CodeRedRuleU : Posts small blind 0.12
bamawins : Posts big blind 0.25
Shanda : Calls for 0.25
spyda711 : Folds
kremgutt : Calls for 0.25
Dollygirl : Calls for 0.25
amuck : Folds
Mattymar : Folds
jschaben : Calls for 0.25
CodeRedRuleU : Calls for 0.13
bamawins : Checks
------------------
Flop[ 9C, AH, JS]
------------------
CodeRedRuleU : Checks
bamawins : Checks
Shanda : Checks
kremgutt : Checks
Dollygirl : Checks
jschaben : Checks
------------------
Turn [ 9C, AH, JS, 6H]
------------------
CodeRedRuleU : Checks
bamawins : Bets 0.50
Shanda : Folds
kremgutt : Calls for 0.50
Dollygirl : Calls for 0.50
jschaben : Folds
CodeRedRuleU : Folds
------------------
River [ 9C, AH, JS, 6H, QH ]
------------------
bamawins : Bets 0.50
kremgutt : Calls for 0.50
Dollygirl : Calls for 0.50
bamawins : Shows cards
kremgutt : Shows cards

hand 4

*** Export for: CodeRedRuleU Game: Texas Holdem Game number: 193141410 ***
Date: 12/28/2004 6:38:04 PM
Game: 193141410: Table: Harley Davidson
Normal Table Fixed Limit 0.25/0.50
Rake: 0.25
Seat: 1 trackmaster
Seat: 3 Xeonrf (Dealer)
Seat: 4 alfatcat
Seat: 5 mi__lu
Seat: 6 CodeRedRuleU [ KD, 10D ]
Seat: 7 kiyohara
Seat: 8 zzzZZzzz
Seat: 9 nille63
Seat: 10 jzo

------------------
OpeningBetRound
------------------
alfatcat : Posts small blind 0.12
mi__lu : Posts big blind 0.25
CodeRedRuleU : Calls for 0.25
kiyohara : Calls for 0.25
zzzZZzzz : Folds
nille63 : Calls for 0.25
jzo : Folds
trackmaster : Calls for 0.25
Xeonrf : Folds
alfatcat : Folds
mi__lu : Checks
------------------
Flop [ 4C, 9S, 6C]
------------------
mi__lu : Checks
CodeRedRuleU : Checks
kiyohara : Bets 0.25
nille63 : Calls for 0.25
trackmaster : Calls for 0.25
mi__lu : Folds
CodeRedRuleU : Calls for 0.25
------------------
Turn [ 4C, 9S, 6C, KC]
------------------
CodeRedRuleU : Bets 0.50
kiyohara : Calls for 0.50
nille63 : Folds
trackmaster : Folds
------------------
River [ 4C, 9S, 6C, KC, JS ]
------------------
CodeRedRuleU : Bets 0.50
kiyohara : Raises for 1.00
CodeRedRuleU : Calls for 0.50
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elipsesjeff
Old 12-31-2004, 01:11 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Well, usually if I PFR I bet out on the Flop if I have anything or not. If i don't PFR then usually you can't bet out because you have given no previous aggression, so theres no reason for them to fold to you.

On the turn, if still unimproved, I usually check if i don't think i can get them to fold.


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Old 12-31-2004, 01:41 AM #5 (permalink)  
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all of the hands you posted all have something in common. the pots were relatively big, and you had bad position in all of them.

overcards are just a weak 6 out draw. you were in no position to bet or raise any of those, because there were so many opponents. remember, you only bet out when there is a good chance they will fold, ie against 1 or 2 opponents. against 4 random opponents your cards are probably not good. yet i don't mind what you did for any of the hands you posted mainly because the pot was big, and you need to play aggressively in big pots, even as an underdog.
 
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ChezJ
Old 12-31-2004, 05:29 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 sorry i don't have time to read all those hand histories, but i'll comment on #1.

first, with AJ i think you should be raising preflop.

second, on the flop you have nothing but overcards, not even a backdoor flush draw. meanwhile the 2-flush on the board taints two of your outs. so you are drawing to 4 outs and need 11:1 to continue. in EP, you have no idea how many players you can count on to build the pot, so checking is the right move. if all 5 opponents call, you'll get your 11:1 and you'll have an ok call.

third, with 6 players to the flop, you are clearly playing in a terribly loose game, so one small bet is clearly not going to win the pot on the flop. there is little foreseeable benefit to betting out in this spot. meanwhile you risk getting raised or 3bet. so again, checking is the right move.

now, if you check and it's checked to the button who bets, you might possibly check-raise to protect your draw and try to get heads up. but that's a pretty high risk maneuver for such a moderately sized pot. ideally what you really want is a free card or an easy fold.

ChezJ
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Old 12-31-2004, 06:39 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChezJ
first, with AJ i think you should be raising preflop.
against 5 random opponents, AJo is a very weak hand. AJs you can raise, because the flush will beat all 5 opponents. with AJo, you're really only hoping for top pair. flopping 2 pair or trips won't happen enough to make the raise profitable.
 
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gabe
Old 12-31-2004, 07:03 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Raising AJo from the blinds is a specific situtation covered in SSH on pages 237-238. It says AJs should be raised because you have more of a chance at winning than the other limpers, so the pot should be bigger. Here's what it says for weaker hands (like AJo, which it mentions)

"These weaker hands usually have a modest preflop edge against five loose opponents, so a raise shows some profit, Yor edge is relatively small, however, so when you check, you forgeit only a small amount. Your improved postflop expectation will usually compensate for this money. "

So there's something to chew on.
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Brodie
Old 01-01-2005, 09:01 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I love posts like this with references to specific pages, it makes it super easy to go and refresh on a topic.

Thanks Gabriel!
Brodie

"The present success is the hundred failures of the past."
 
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