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View Poll Results: Your play?
Bet	13	86.67%
Check	2	13.33%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

Overcard Poll #2

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Fnord

03-02-2005, 04:49 AM Post subject: Overcard Poll #2

#1 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Mid limit game.

A tricky-aggro/loose player from EP limps, a similar player from MP limps. You raise A

from the CO. Button folds, tight blinds fold, both other players call.

Flop is: J

It's checked to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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|~|ypermegachi

03-02-2005, 05:14 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

me bet, for information, and free card.
since they're tricky, if i check the flop one of them will bet into me on the turn, forcing me to fold or make a unprofitable call.

elipsesjeff

03-02-2005, 06:07 AM

#3 (permalink)

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I bet here as well, although not for imformation. I'll autobet to follow through on my preflop raise plus theres a good chance your hand is still the best. Take the free card on the turn though, they should give it to you.

If you're check raised then its a call and without improvement on turn, fold.

And hyper, the pot would be relatively small enough on the turn to not fight for it.

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Fnord

03-02-2005, 06:22 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Take the free card on the turn though, they should give it to you.

Not these guys. Loose/tricky players will run lines like check/raise the flop or check/call the flop then lead the turn with any piece or just because they think you missed. Betting the flop planning to check behind on the turn isn't going to fly very often.

That being said, what's your plan here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

03-02-2005, 07:29 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Well, theres only so much you can do (other than find a new table). You can plan on going to showdown as cheaply as possible, or you can try and buy the pot. Or, both, if you think you're ace is really that good. But, don't forget, these players ARENT teaming up against you here, they have to be thinking about each other as they are thinking about you, although right now you are their number one enemy.

In reality, there are only two things to do on the above hand, and that is to bet or check.

bet

The reasons to bet would be:

1. you don't offer them the opportunity to see any cards for cheap,
2. you're value betting Ace high,
3. you're setting up a play later in the session,
4. you might be able to fold one, if not both of them,
5. to encourage an overcall,
6. to set up a free card on the turn
7. to represent an overpair, or even TPTK

All the above are also dependant on what you've played like and what you've shown down earlier in the hand AS WELL AS your read on these players. If you think these players are so capable of check raising a bluff, then you must three bet them with Ace high, if only to take a free card on the turn. You're goal should be to 1) win the pot and 2) win the most money from winning the pot.

checking

Maybe taking a four card flop is more profitable at 15/30. Then what do you on the Turn (if unimproved)? Well, it depends on which opponent bets. If the opponent in EP bets and the other calls, you should fold as you are probably beat.

If the first opponent checks and the second opponent bets, then you can think about calling here (raising even to get a free showdown and folding the first opponent out?) with position in a HU match (expecting the first opponent to fold, but if he raises, you should fold). If the second opponent also checks, you are forced in the same decision again, but this time you are forced to check behind on the turn as well.

On the river if you aren't going to a HU showdown by calling one bet you should be folding here. Generally the person calling will have you beat and the pot will be so small that risking one bet isnt worth it.

Calling down your opponent at the wrong time will continue to be costly. Never the less, I still believe that the way you play your hand in accordance to the way your opponent plays your hand will cost you just as much money.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

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Fnord

03-02-2005, 07:35 AM

#6 (permalink)

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To be honest, I'm back and forth on this one. As I move up and play in tougher games I find myself in these situations more often...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

03-02-2005, 07:51 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Location: Northern Virginia

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Hand 1:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

, A

.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, UTG calls, MP3 folds.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 9

, 6

, 3

(2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 4.70 BB

Hand 2:
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K

, A

.
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) 9

, 5

, 8

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Hand 3:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7

, 7

.
4 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) 8

, 5

, 2

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB folds.

Final Pot: 4 BB

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, 9

.
7 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 7

, 6

, 2

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) Q

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) T

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below:
SB has Qd 9d (one pair, queens).
Hero has Ad 9h (high card, ace).
Outcome: SB wins 9 BB.

I think a couple of theses are relevant. I think the last one moreso than the rest. I knew that guy had Jack shit and they will still draw out on you. I'm still glad I called down though.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

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elipsesjeff

03-02-2005, 07:52 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

To be honest, I'm back and forth on this one. As I move up and play in tougher games I find myself in these situations more often...

What do the trout say?

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Trikflow77

03-02-2005, 08:39 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,460

With the board the way it is, I would bet, and a caller or raiser would not make me think my hand is no good. The texture of this board would warrent a call from many drawing hands, so I would bet my unimproved AQ. If a TAGG checks the flop it means two things........monster or total wiff, I rarely see the inbetween. With the two flush on the board, a TAGG would most likely bet a set of jacks AA/KK/QQ on the flop, so if he didnt bet, I would read him as weak and try to move him off his hand.

Fnord

03-02-2005, 08:41 AM

#10 (permalink)

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What's your plan for the turn + river?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

03-02-2005, 09:07 AM

#11 (permalink)

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With a safe turn card and 1 caller I would bet the turn and check behind on the river. With both players calling, I coulld easily see one of them having a suited jack. Against weak fish, most of the time I have to fire 2 bullets to get them to fold, they always see the flop. Against a 2 good players, they are calling with something, if not, they have a read on you and are planning to outplay you. My defualt play would be to bet turn check river, because checking the turn would induce a bluff on the river that you would have to make a decision on. By betting the turn, a river lead is much less likely. It is kinda like a blocker bet so to speak. Plus, if they make their hand, they are likely to go for a c/r seeing that you showed aggression throught the hand.

The only problem I see with this hand is a good (assuming hes good) player might lead the river if a drawing hand card comes and he missed. This will force you to fold your hand.

I was at a 3/6 table today and someone mentioned the good old brown trout and 4 players other than me chimed in. I left....after 8 hands....lol

LeFou

03-02-2005, 11:50 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Posts: 2,361

I was undecided about this, but trikflow talked me into the bet. That guy knows his shit.

Jay67s

03-02-2005, 02:43 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: West Virginia

Posts: 241

you have to bet here

you may take it down
you get called which leads you to thinking someone is on a draw or midpair/maybe top

you get called by both -- unless you improve on the turn your probably beat

you get raised -- you can fold, call and see the turn -- not improvement then you can fold it

check tells you nothing but does give you a free card

Zinnsoldaten

03-02-2005, 02:58 PM

#14 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Sweden

Posts: 130

Bet flop + turn unimproved.

What Shadows We Are, And What Shadows We Pursue

elipsesjeff

03-02-2005, 03:18 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Trik,

Betting the turn other than HU in this situation is a leak in my opinion, (which i thinkyou agree); and I believe the chances of this being HU on the turn are pretty slim facing two drawing opponents. The likelyhood of a check/raise on the turn is much more than the possibility of you getting your opponents to fold. If you check the turn and they bet the river you are seeing the showdown for the same price as you would have if you had bet the turn.

Even HU you're only going to get called by hands that beat you here or have significant odds against you, and raised even by hands that dont. I would be wanting to see this showdown for as cheaply as possible, thus checking the turn would be the most viable option if given to you.

However, fnord already said that the option of the free card does not exist. So if you're checkraised on the flop, if you don't three bet they are not going to check on the turn. And, if you do three bet, theres always the possibility of getting capped, streaming you further into the depths of a call down with nothing but Ace high. Thus, assume that you bet and are checkraised and you called. According to your line you have to call down here because even with a raise you said you still believe YHIG.

Thus, I dislike not betting out here based on what your opponent could or not do, that logic can be made on every hand. The "What-ifs" of the poker world force us to play this hand, and many others for that matter, anything other than the most logical explanation. Again, if you're opponents decide to raise you here then folding on your part on the turn may not be the most illogical. Not many players are capable of the check raise bluff, and you'll just have to take advantage of this player's thinking ability later in the session. He's already got you overthinking your hand, let him overplay his.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

Crunch

03-02-2005, 04:40 PM

#16 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Saint John

Posts: 82

Not enough fish out there for you at the mid limit holdem games, Fnord? Why would you be in a game with two tricky players on your left anyways?

This is the part that I hate about Limit. At this point, you cant give them much to think about that would disuade them from playing the hand any farther. A bet at this point is saying either 'I've got high pocket pair', or just as likely 'I've got AK/AQ/KQs'. While betting is not giving any more information about *your* hand to them, it's also a bad thing in that you cant give them more info (false albeit), even if you wanted to, with a bet.

I steal their thunder, and check. If they check the turn looking to check/raise or check/call + check/raise the river, I check again. If they bet the turn, I raise it. Check/raising at that point should scare the willies out of them, depending on your board image. This of course works much better if you do hit your overcards, but even a Q and this point should be enough. I think if they call the turn, you may be rogered and have to assess on the river where you stand.

Don't play their game, use it against them.

ChezJ

03-02-2005, 05:35 PM

#17 (permalink)

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ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

if you bet the flop then also bet the turn unimproved, you are opening yourself to the ultimate trap... the turn check-raise.

a smart player will check-call you on the flop and then check-raise you on a blank turn with absolutely nothing just to fuck with you.

john vorhaus wrote about this move in "killer poker" and i tried it last night with crap in my hand. omg it is deadly.

ChezJ

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