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The other side of being Aggressive...

  
 
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Fnord
Old 11-10-2004, 09:47 AM     Post subject: The other side of being Aggressive... #1 (permalink)  
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SB is loose/passive, plays nearly every hand
Button has a clue.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with J, K.
Fnord raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 5, 4, Q (3 players)
SB bets, Fnord folds...

Same table
SB and BB are loose/passive
Button has a clue

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP with A, J.
UTG folds, Fnord raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3, T, 8 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Fnord checks, Button checks.

Turn: (4 BB) 6 (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Fnord folds...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 11-10-2004, 07:04 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Wow, I was wondering if anyone would call these out as weak...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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mike4066
Old 11-10-2004, 07:09 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Huh, didn't see them. Thanks for bumping it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Wow, I was wondering if anyone would call these out as weak...
Well if you would have posted them on 2+2 I think you would have been flamed for folding to 1 small bet, and not being aggressive enough on the second hand, that out of the way

I like the first one, you have a passive player who just bet into a preflop raiser. You missed it, don't try to catch up.


But in the second hand what was your reason for not bettin out on the flop?
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jmrogers7
Old 11-10-2004, 07:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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If that's weak, then so be it. I'd have folded them too. Although I might have bet out on the flop on Hand #2 as Mike noted.
"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
 
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Nehmer
Old 11-10-2004, 07:10 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I don't think there is anything wrong with hand 1 at all. You said that the SB is passive, so his betting shows that he has some kind of a hand, so you are beat, good fold. Hand 2, I would like to see a bet on the flop, but you said the SB and BB are both loose, so I could see that flop hitting one of them, so I think you played it fine.
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Fnord
Old 11-10-2004, 07:20 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmrogers7
If that's weak, then so be it. I'd have folded them too. Although I might have bet out on the flop on Hand #2 as Mike noted.
Yeah that's an interesting one. Here is what was going through my mind:

o My read on the SB/BB was call-stationish, so there was a good chance I'd have to show a hand in this 4-way pot.
o Button was somewhat tight. His cold-call puts him on a med-strong hand. If he missed too, I might get a free turn card.
o If the button bets and the SB/BB raises it's the world's easiest fold. If the button bets and it's just called around I could close the action with my call.
o I'd taken down a couple pots recently to river folds after betting all the way. Figured I'd shift down a gear on a close hand.

Donno, been looking for places to dial the aggression down to "value" against loose/passives. This looked like a reasonable spot, but was having second thoughts...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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jmrogers7
Old 11-10-2004, 07:25 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmrogers7
If that's weak, then so be it. I'd have folded them too. Although I might have bet out on the flop on Hand #2 as Mike noted.
Yeah that's an interesting one. Here is what was going through my mind:

o My read on the SB/BB was call-stationish, so there was a good chance I'd have to show a hand in this 4-way pot.
o Button was somewhat tight. His cold-call puts him on a med-strong hand. If he missed too, I might get a free turn card.
o If the button bets and the SB/BB raises it's the world's easiest fold. If the button bets and it's just called around I could close the action with my call.
o I'd taken down a couple pots recently to river folds after betting all the way. Figured I'd shift down a gear on a close hand.

Donno, been looking for places to dial the aggression down to "value" against loose/passives. This looked like a reasonable spot, but was having second thoughts...
After hearing that you had taken down a few pots with river bets I think this was an excellent place to tone it down. You had nothing so nothing really lost in the process. If any of them had a clue you probably did yourself a favor for later hands by dialing down the aggression a bit.
"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
 
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zenbitz
Old 11-10-2004, 07:39 PM #8 (permalink)  
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First hand I play the same.

I probably would have bet the overcards on the flop in hand 2, since that is what Fnord taught me to do. :P I probably would fold the turn bet from the L/P. Noted about your wanting to tone agg done... but if your bet knocks the button out, that's one decent player you don't have to worry about in this hand. If he did hit that wierd flop, he'll raise you and you can lay down.

I know it's irritating to lose to a L/P calling you down with a made had, but
a) they don't win big doing that
b) they have to win SOMETIME, or they will get discouraged and run out of money.
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DrNoChance
Old 11-10-2004, 07:42 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I like the way both hands were played. Hand 2 is an ideal time to show a short-handed table that you aren't Mr. Auto-bet when you're the pre-flop raiser. People notice things like that at a short table.
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lonnie
Old 11-10-2004, 10:07 PM #10 (permalink)  
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This is a timely post for me. I've been going bonkers when I don't hit flops after a PFR, and I have to cool it now. Don't see you post too many hands like this.

I'm starting to see that you MUST change speeds, especially when you have a broad range of hands you are willing to PFR with and a lot of callers.

I've been wasting a lot of bets the past few days betting flops that don't hit me. The real trap is that if you bet the flop in a raised pot, then the pot is big enough on the turn to make even more shitty calls with.

Good post.
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