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kyc12
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09-11-2006, 02:19 PM
Post subject: Open limp discussion
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 89
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Edit: The idea I'm asking about should only apply to FR, not 6-max.
Let's say you're somewhere between MP2 and Button, and everyone folds to you. Everyone yet to act is somewhat loose-passive, and you hold a hand that you would like to play, but it's a hand you'd probably fold if a tight player have limped in front of you (A50, K9s, etc)
What I find is that if I raise these hands, especially from MP, I may get 2-3 callers (once I raised A5o at CO and got 3 callers). Also, they play scared at your rasie, they start playing "better" from the flop, folding to any scare card on the flop. So, a lot of the time when an A/K hit the flop, the only people who calls down with you are people who have got a pair, but since I only have A50, I only win if I hit an A, and lose most of the time otherwise.
Now let's say you open limp and no one raised. If you hit your flop, you will still win most of the time (and I assume you can get away if you see signs of danger), and you get a lot more chasers because they have seen or think that you will bet out with middle pair (one way to show them that is to check BB and bet out), so they provide dead money to you when you are way ahead, instead of getting them pre-flop when you edge is small.
In short, to open-raise is to drive out hands that may be better than you. But if the same time, you drive out a lot of bad cards/bad players, is it worth it? Also, if you think open-limp is worthwhile, what are the hands that you'll do it with (corresponding to position)?
Lastly, if you open-limp, and it is raised back to you with few callers, I will seriously consider folding my A50. This may be an exception to the limp-raised-call rule.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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So you have A5o in mid position, with a bunch of loose passives yet to act? You should muck this hand every single time, and it's not even close. Same with K9. I'm not gonna sit here and justify anyone playing shitty, non implied odds type cards from anything but LP in special situations.
I'm sorry you wrote 6 paragraphs, but the answer is two words. Fold it. This is coming from a hyper aggressive 6-max player.
The name of this game is catching someone with a hand they like, when you have them beat. This can be on the low end (weird rag straights and sets), or on the high end (overpairs, dominations). A5o and K9 don't fit into these categories. So basically when you enter a pot, you want a hand that at least has potential to win a big pot. Whether you can access fold equity and bluff steal with a worse hand later is irrelevant.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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kyc12
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 89
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Rondavu, I appreciate your response. If this is a two word answers, there's no reason to write more.
At 6-max I will never do it. I should be more clear that this is a FR game question. At 6-max, if two people fold to you and you hold A5o, aren't you going to raise and hope to get the blinds/HU? Now suppose it's a FR game. 6 folds to you, shouldn't you do the same?
However, my answer is No, at least not always, in these poorly played low limit games. In these FR games the value of blind stealing is so low. With any hand that you can raise for value, raise for sure, but if you have a marginal hand and you know you're not going to get everyone to fold, why raise? Limp and outplay them later.
Of course, by saying this I'm saying there's a big difference between people who play FR and 6-max, but I do believe that at FR you will occasionally arrive at table that satisfy the condition I put out on my previous post, while at 6-max that's basically impossible.
If the answer is still "fold it", just say it and we'll move on.
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kyc12
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 89
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
The name of this game is catching someone with a hand they like, when you have them beat.
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I also think this is a very good point
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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The answer is still fold it, I'm afraid. "outplay them later" is all very well but with hands like A5o you will pretty much ALWAYS be bluffing them later - you'll have a winning hand (two pair or better) so infrequently that you'll be constantly relying on bad players folding to aggression. Bad players often DON'T fold, it's one of the things that makes them bad!
Another problem you'll have is that if you limp, people with other mediocre hands will limp and you won't have much clue what they're holding. Let's say you have your A5o in the CO, you open limp and are called by the butoon and the blinds. Flop is 68Q. What now? Any of them could have hit any part of this flop - to push Q9 off that flop you're going to have to do a lot of raising without a draw worth mentioning, and 86? You're going to get stacked.
And, of course, when you do hit you'll have to fold to any resistance (and there're most likely be at least three other players in the pot), because they'll be holding that ace and it's likely to have a better kicker than yours. And, once again, you'll be hard pressed to push them off it if they're holding top pair!
If you want to bully and bluff, do it in LP and with any two (semi-bluffing and cont betting is different - I'm talking about the kind of stone cold bluffing you'd have to do on almost every hand), and do it with raises.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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You need to know what hands are worth an open-raise from each position. Once the first 4 people fold FR, you want to almost always open-raise. Only on very loose/passive tables would you want to consider an open limp from MP2 and later, and then only with the mid/small pps like 44-77 and mid suited connectors, probably 78s-9Ts. You can see this isn't going to happen very often.
There are 2 reasons you open-raise and don't open limp. The first is to fight for position, and the second is to charge the blinds to play. Even though the BB may have correct odds to call another bet with a worse hand, a +EV play for him, this is still more +EV for you than if you limp and give him a free flop.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kyc12
I should be more clear that this is a FR game question. At 6-max, if two people fold to you and you hold A5o, aren't you going to raise and hope to get the blinds/HU? Now suppose it's a FR game. 6 folds to you, shouldn't you do the same?
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No, I muck A5o. If folded to me in MP at full ring I basically use the same raising standards as I would to open at 6-max. A5o is not a hand I'm opening with at 6-max so I wouldn't open at full ring either. AXo hands are difficult to play, even with position.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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A good general rule for criteria to open raise is to have a 50% chance of having the best hand at the table. If you look at most good limit holdem opening charts, and do a little math, you will find that the minimum hands for which raising is recommended for each position have very close to a 50% chance of being the best hand at the table. Finding the range that gives you a 50% chance of having the best hand is actually very easy. It is just (1/2)^(1/(# of players left to act)) when the action has folded to you. Starting from 5th position at a 10 seat table, this gives the following ranges for open raising:
5th pos (MP2): top 13% (AT,KJ,A8s,K9s,QTs,JTs,88)
6th (HJ): top 16% (AT,KT,QJ,A4s,K9s,Q9s,JTs,66)
CO: top 20% (A9,KT,QT,JT,A4s,K8s,Q9s,J9s,T9s,55)
BT: top 30% (A5,K9,Q9,J9,T9,Axs,K5s,Q7s,J8s,T8s,98s,44)
This is of course just a starting point. You can play a little looser in the CO and Button because of better position, and should be a little tighter in earlier position than the 50% rule. Table dynamics of course also change this. If you have habitual cold callers to your left, the suited hands at the bottom of these ranges go up in value, and the marginal unsuited hands go down in value and shouldn't be played. For example, if the button usually cold calls when you open-raise from the CO, a hand like QTo you should probably just muck.
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kyc12
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 89
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Thanks guys. These are great comments, I'll post here again next time I have a crazy idea 
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I muck A5o in position, and I raise 86o. Do you see why?
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
I muck A5o in position, and I raise 86o. Do you see why?
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A play that can occasionally be good at a tough table, but this is ludicrous at a small stakes table of loose/passives. So what position are you going to raise 86o? If before CO you are definitely losing your ass on this play. If it is on the Button, would be better to raise the A5o than the 86o for the far superior showdown value. Against 2 random hands, A5o is 40.46%. That's pretty good odds. 86o is only 30.43%. Not too good. It's a bottom third hand.
The kind of play you are suggesting here can be a useful weapon at a NL game. But in limit, this kind of play is usually pure spewage, and it will be very hard with even perfect post-flop play to make money raising 86o. In limit poker, you just can't get enough implied odds and fold equity to do this. Also, playing a hand like A5o is much less dangerous in limit than NL for the same reason ... bet sizes are controlled, and you can only lose so much when you are dominated by a better Ace. When you raise on the Button in limit and the BB calls, you can confidently call down top pair no kicker against almost all players and show a profit. And you will get the chance to showdown A-high and win a lot of pots that way too. A5o is way too good a hand to be mucking when folded around to you on the Button.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Ugh I posted in a limit forum without realising again. Sorry kyc12 - please take my comment above bearing in mind I was thinking NL when I wrote it!
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Anosmic
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 999
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Hee Hee.
Living in denial biondino?
You're a closet limit player... admit it
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Sklansky makes smart arguments for openlimping with A6o on the button against loose, passive players...
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