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spoonitnow
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11-21-2006, 04:48 AM
Post subject: OOP Middle Pair vs Maniac
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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5-handed, Hero is CO, Villian is Button 75/30/3.5 over a large sample.
Hero is dealt: J T
UTG folds, Hero raises, Villian 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls.
Flop: K T 4 (7.5 small bets)
Hero checks, Villian bets, Hero calls.
Turn: K T 4 8 (4.75 big bets)
Hero checks, Villian bets, Hero calls.
River: K T 4 8 2 (6.75 big bets)
Hero ... ?
On the river here do we bet/fold, bet/call, or check/call and why?
On the flop and turn, do we play it any differently?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I don't mind calling down with just one overcard here, really don't think you're losing any value by not raising any of the streets. If you are beat you'll lose the minimum and there will definitely be better times against this opponent where you'll be able to win more bets on the bigger streets.
Question for you PF, you pretty much know button is going to call, and you have a hand with no high card value. Is this really a hand you want to be playing against this type of an opponent who is certainly capable of 3bet isolating you PF? This opponent is not going to let you see free cards, and you have a drawing hand. I don't know if I raise this hand here, which means I probably won't even call with it in 6max. Oh yea, why is he on your left?
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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He's on our left because I made the HH up and I wanted Hero out of position.
I think preflop is fine. Please don't tell me you open fold JTs from CO.
I should of included a W$SD stat, whatcha think?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I don't openfold JTs from the CO, however, against an opponent who I believe will 3bet me light all the time it just isn't a hand I want to play. I've worked so hard on not open limping in 6max but this might be the one spot I would want to do it. JTs just isn't a good enough hand to be playing for 3bets PF.
Anyone think this could be the definition of a good spot to open limp in 6max? Maniac player on your left and a good speculative hand. If he respects you and will fold out to one of your raises then I would raise, however, it looks like you will be 3bet (esp. when he is on the button) in this spot the majority of the time. I know his range is wide but Id believe you would be behind his 3bet range here.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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You're losing value if you fold JTs here.
We're about 44% against his raising range.
At least 70% of the time he's not raising.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I know this Spoon, my question is, do we raise or open limp? Im playing JTs here I just don't want to play it for 3bets PF, so Im open limping this here w/ a maniac on my left.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I know this Spoon, my question is, do we raise or open limp? Im playing JTs here I just don't want to play it for 3bets PF, so Im open limping this here w/ a maniac on my left.
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Okay then let me rephrase myself.
You're losing value if you don't raise JTs here.
I think maybe you're too fixated on the whole "he raises with a lot" thing.
Edit: If you need some sort of number to make you feel happy about it, think about this. Let's say he does 3-bet and the blinds fold, and we call. We've only put in 40% of the money in the pot, and we're over 40% to win the hand.
Re-edit: Bleh, not meaning to come across as an asshole, sorry if I was. Open-limping JTs here addresses one very specific aspect of the situation, and that is that you don't think you should play JTs for three bets before the flop (whether or not this is a serious problem isn't the debate here). However, that is going to be 30% of the time or less. By trying to cater for this, you are neglecting the other 70% of the time, and between the two, you are losing value.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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75/30/3.5 means we are going to be 3bet by a large range when this player is on the button. Spoon the number don't always tell the entire story here, you are also going to be OOP the entire hand which seriously detracts from the amounts of value you could gain by playing a hand like this. Its going to be harder to play a flopped draw, its going to be harder to play a flop like the one you got, you just aren't going to get a lot of value out of your hand when you hit it. Also, JT is not a calling down hand, you must hit this flop. All that said, Im probably not playing JT here with the maniac on my left and on the button.
I like this little debate....
You know, life is so much easier with the maniac on our right
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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I really want to raise here somewhere, assuming villain's 3-bet range preflop is the same as raising range (some maniacs will actually 3-bet looser than they raise which is even better). If his 3-bet range is considerable tighter than raising range, I play as you did, but would never consider a fold.
With no read, or if I think his 3-bet range is as loose as 30%, I think I like check/calling the flop and then check/raising the turn for value if no Q or A falls. If the raise is called on the turn, lead the river, if 3-bet on the turn, check/call the river. Your middle pair is close to 60% against a 30% 3-betting range.
Against some maniacs, I can see capping flop and turn here, but you have to have a strong read on that line.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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You're going to be out of position IF he 3-bets (a semi-big if). This is probably nullified by your knowledge of his aggression after the flop, because you can get a lot more value post-flop than you think. But enough, not raising JTs there is -EV.
I felt like I should be raising somewhere in there too, but even now I can't decide when the best time is. My current favorite is a check/raise on the turn.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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