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zenbitz

12-07-2004, 06:51 AM Post subject: ooh... this is just plain ugly

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

CARDSON
***** Hand History for Game 1269844273 *****
$1/$2 Hold'em - Tuesday, December 07, 02:43:04 EDT 2004
Table Table 25438 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: kaneki ( $148.25 )
Seat 2: LotsaAction ( $45 )
Seat 5: bailey232 ( $114.25 )
Seat 6: madeonflop ( $8 )
Seat 8: tackleyou200 ( $2.5 )
Seat 9: lbshaiboy ( $21.5 )
Seat 10: Kelgar888 ( $26.25 )
Seat 3: zenbitz ( $49 )
Seat 7: Kariya29 ( $50 )
zenbitz posts small blind [$0.5].
bailey232 posts big blind [$1].
Kariya29 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to zenbitz [ :Ah:

]
Ozebnik has joined the table.
madeonflop raises [$2].
Kariya29 calls [$1].
tackleyou200 is all-In.
lbshaiboy folds.
Kelgar888 folds.
kaneki folds.
LotsaAction calls [$2.5].
madeonflop: does kaneki ever play unles she has all da XXXX hhhhhmmm?
zenbitz calls [$2].
bailey232 calls [$1.5].
madeonflop raises [$1.5].
Kariya29 calls [$1.5].
LotsaAction calls [$1].
zenbitz calls [$1].
bailey232 calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7c, 9s, Ad ]
zenbitz checks.
bailey232 checks.
madeonflop checks.
Kariya29 checks.
LotsaAction checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
zenbitz bets [$2].
bailey232 folds.
madeonflop raises [$4].
Kariya29 folds.
LotsaAction calls [$4].
zenbitz calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ 6h ]
zenbitz checks.
madeonflop is all-In.
LotsaAction calls [$0.5].
zenbitz calls [$0.5].
zenbitz shows [ Ah, 2h ] a pair of aces.
Results in white
madeonflop doesn't show [ 6c, Jc ] a pair of sixes.
tackleyou200 doesn't show [ 9c, Th ] a pair of nines.
LotsaAction shows [ Ks, Kc ] a pair of kings.
zenbitz wins $18.25 from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
zenbitz wins $14.25 from the main pot with a pair of aces.

Number 1, I should have just folded - getting only 5:1
Number 2, I should have bet the flop - but I think I was shocked by my own fishyness, and I was hoping to check-call down. How could I not be outkicked pseudocapped 3 way 4 way PF?

Then the turn raise really threw me, but since the player was nearly allin (in a 1/2 limit game!) I figured he was just trying to get his chips in there.
At this point I have no idea what was going on - just standing around hoping to get lucky...

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elipsesjeff

12-07-2004, 12:39 PM

#2 (permalink)

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elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Number 1, I should have just folded - getting only 5:1

Correct, Cold-Calling = BAAAAADDDDDD

Quote:

Number 2, I should have bet the flop - but I think I was shocked by my own fishyness, and I was hoping to check-call down. How could I not be outkicked pseudocapped 3 way 4 way PF?

You were right in not betting the flop, you got to go for the check-raise to see where you are in the hand. Betting straight out would give everyone odds to draw out (bottom pair, OPSD, etc). However, by not betting you gave them 'infinite' odds to draw, tough luck. Surprised the PFRor didn't bet the flop and then take the free card on the turn (if he was any good he might do this, or betting until he sees aggressiveness.

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lonnie

12-08-2004, 04:14 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Quote:

Correct, Cold-Calling = BAAAAADDDDDD

It's impossible to cold-call from a blind Jeff.

Quote:

However, by not betting you gave them 'infinite' odds to draw, tough luck.

How do these infinite odds work again? Not f'ing with you, but most GOOD drawing hands prefer to get money in the pot. I do agree with check raising the flop though.

I've got some hands that look a lot like this in PT. The only difference is most of mine lost.

elipsesjeff

12-08-2004, 04:43 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonnie

It's impossible to cold-call from a blind Jeff.

Yeah, I originally thought he was in a blind, then I looked back partially at the HH and saw "zenbitz calls [$2]" I guess 'technically' you couldn't call this a 'cold-call' but I usually assume calling a raise in SB as Cold-Calling. Sklansky says you treat a raise in SB just as you would play from EP against a raise. Effectively, only the most premium hands should be played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonnie

How do these infinite odds work again? Not f'ing with you, but most GOOD drawing hands prefer to get money in the pot.

But the problem here is, Zenbitz doesn't have a Good Drawing hand, if you can even consider it a drawing hand (I guess every hand you play after the flop you can improve on can be considered a drawing hand). The only reason you check here is for the check-raise, counting on other good drawing hands here to bet. Most players don't bet with their drawing hands, they would rather see the river for cheap. The concept of betting without a made hand is lost on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonnie

I've got some hands that look a lot like this in PT. The only difference is most of mine lost.

Dont feel too sad, those hands are supposed to lose. Can't win every hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonnie

How do these infinite odds work again?

Infinite odds arent as confusing as you are making them out to be. Basically, if you aren't forcing a player to call a bet, you are allowing the chance for any two cards to draw out on you for free. By checking, you are risking letting everyone see the Turn card for free, giving them infinite odds to call (because they dont call, they just 'check'). Thats the risk everytime you try and do a check-raise is letting everyone see the Turn card without being able to act again.

Most times, in situations you are trying to protect your hand (like this one), the use of the check-raise allows you to judge the strength of your hand as well as that of the opponents. Zenbitz correctly learned that he probably has the best hand after everyone else checked behind him. Thats why he bet out on the Turn. And he was right, the Turn-raise was awkward, possibly someone slow playing a AA or AK or whatever. He got lucky that someone didn't have him outkicked or had him beat.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

lonnie

12-08-2004, 04:43 AM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Hand 1

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Lonnie is BB with A

, 6

.
UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, Lonnie calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A

, 2

, 9

(3 players)
Lonnie checks, UTG bets, Button calls, Lonnie raises, UTG calls, Button 3-bets, Lonnie folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) J

(2 players)
UTG checks, Button checks.

River: (7.25 BB) 4

(2 players)
UTG checks, Button bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Kd Ks (one pair, kings).
Button has 2s As (two pair, aces and twos).
Outcome: Button wins 9.25 BB.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Hand 2

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Lonnie is Button with 9

, A

.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Lonnie calls, SB raises, BB calls, Lonnie calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 8

, A

, T

(3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Lonnie raises, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 9

(2 players)
SB checks, Lonnie bets, SB calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 6

(2 players)
SB checks, Lonnie bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below:
SB has Qc Qd (one pair, queens).
Lonnie has 9h Ah (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: Lonnie wins 9.50 BB.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Hand 3

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Lonnie is Button with 8

, A

.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Lonnie calls, SB raises, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Lonnie calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2

, A

, 3

(5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Lonnie calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) K

(3 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls, Lonnie calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 2

(3 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls, Lonnie calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Results in white below:
SB has 5c 5h (two pair, fives and twos).
MP1 has 4s Ks (two pair, kings and twos).
Lonnie has 8s As (two pair, aces and twos).
Outcome: Lonnie wins 12.50 BB.

Fnord

12-08-2004, 06:08 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

You play g00t post-flop.

In hand 3 kickers are unlikely to play for Ax, allowing for a pretty safe river raise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

12-08-2004, 06:31 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

Yeah, I've got no problem with the way you played, Good examples.

The only question I have is with Hand 1: With 2 bets already in you could possibly call the three-bet and then check-fold the turn if you dont get anything that looks good? If you did this, at the turn you were giving yourself a lot of outs. Any club, 9, J, or 6 = 9+3+3+3 = 18 outs for the best hand on the river. You had no way of knowing this of course at the time, but I thought I would mention it. If no club came up it would be check/fold.

Its also interesting that the button call-raised on the flop, if he had raised you would have folded, but he did get that extra bet out of you.

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More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

Fnord

12-08-2004, 07:00 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

The only question I have is with Hand 1: With 2 bets already in you could possibly call the three-bet and then check-fold the turn if you dont get anything that looks good?

Not with an aggressor to act. That 1sb to see the turn could easily turn into 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

lonnie

12-08-2004, 07:09 AM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Quote:

The only question I have is with Hand 1: With 2 bets already in you could possibly call the three-bet and then check-fold the turn if you dont get anything that looks good?

At this point in the hand I am pretty sure I am beat and aside from a runner runner flush or hitting two pair (which might not win anyway) I don't like my prospects. This isn't a play I make a lot, but every now and then I bail early.

Obviously, I don't lay it down every time or you get run over. My hand was not really worth a raise on the flop, it was more of an intelligence operation. I got my info and got the F out. The read was right - opp had 2 pair. At the point I folded, I was way behind. Pretty sure I muttered some expletives as I watched running clubs hit though.

Fnord

12-08-2004, 07:13 AM

#10 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Call/3-bet on the same street is almost always bad news.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

12-08-2004, 07:19 AM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

I play g00t post-flop too...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with T

, A

. CO posts a blind of $3.
4 folds, Fnord raises, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (6 SB) 2

, J

, T

(2 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

Turn: (4 BB) T

(2 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

River: (6 BB) Q

(2 players)
Fnord bets, CO raises, Fnord 3-bets, CO caps, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Tc Ah (three of a kind, tens).
CO has Kd Ts (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Fnord wins 14 BB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with A

, 8

.
Fnord raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3

, 6

(3 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, Button folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 6

(2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Ad 8d (three of a kind, sixes).
BB has Kh Qc (three of a kind, sixes).
Outcome: Fnord wins 6.25 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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