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Omaha - Donk to Competent - Help me please....

  
 
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BlueBull
Old 09-21-2008, 02:06 PM     Post subject: Omaha - Donk to Competent - Help me please.... #1 (permalink)  

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So heres my situation. I am a pretty reasonable holdem player (pretty big winner on local soft sites at low and medium stakes) andI can hold my own at the NL25 / NL50 games on the dollar sites although I have never really had a decent run at these games.

I am very keen to learn some omaha. My knowledge of the game is somewhat limited right now. I dont even have huge confidence in my opening ranges and post flop I often find myself totally lost!

I am hoping I can use this forum to become a somewhat decent Omaha player and at least get to the point where I can beat the NL 25 and NL 50 games.

I have $250 odd dollars in my stars account at the moment and can reload a few times if necessary so lets just assume I am rolled to play NL25. I will reload as and when necessary.

The plan is simply to post a bunch of hands here every day or two and please feel totally free to tell me how badly I have played. No need to hold back - I can take it - but I would appreciate it if in between highlighting my donkness you could also provide the constructive criticism and pointers that will help me improve my game.

I would also love to know if anyone has any recommended reading for Omaha games at these limits? Strategy guides? Hand charts? etc. Im also a cardrunners member so if you have any suggestions on older videos to watch that would be appreciated. I have downloaded some of the recent Omaha material and will be looking at it in the next few days.

I will be playing on Pokerstars and a little on PokerHeaven (Bossmedia).

First batch of hands will be posted later today and may well focus on those overpair / marginal situations which I really hate at the moment as I just have no clue how to play them in Omaha. Right now its off to watch the second half of the Man United / Chelsea game!
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swiggidy
Old 09-21-2008, 03:10 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 1) Play 10NL to start. No swipe at you, but you're going to make stupid mistakes like calling a big bet with Axxx on a A5T5A board and wonder why you lost.

2) BR requirements are about 2x for Omaha. I almost had to commit myself because I was playing with a 15x roll. Shoot for 40. More than holdem you can't respect money and be comfortable shoving in without a huge advantage.

3) When your posting hands don't post more than 5. Really you should try and limit it to 3. If they're all overpair hands you'll probably get similar responses. One or two detailed responses will be much more effective for you anyway.

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BlueBull
Old 09-21-2008, 04:22 PM #3 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Welcome to FTR and good luck
Thank you. Been a regular reader but irregular poster for ages... but my regular forum has little to no omaha expertise so here I am....

Quote:
1) Play 10NL to start. No swipe at you, but you're going to make stupid mistakes like calling a big bet with Axxx on a A5T5A board and wonder why you lost.

2) BR requirements are about 2x for Omaha. I almost had to commit myself because I was playing with a 15x roll. Shoot for 40. More than holdem you can't respect money and be comfortable shoving in without a huge advantage.
I understand all the reasons why this good advice. But lets just accept I can afford to donk off a good few buyins at this level. Even 25NL is a much smaller game then my regular holdem game and while I fully understand the value of not looking at the game in terms of "cash value" I just dont know if I can take 10NL seriously enough. I am more than happy to supplement my learning experience at Omaha from my Holdem roll!

Some hands illustrating my donkness coming soon!
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BlueBull
Old 09-21-2008, 04:31 PM #4 (permalink)  

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BlueBull
I have invested in PTOmaha and had my HUD running bt either had no stats or nothing meaningful on any of the players during this session.

These may be very standard spots for Omaha regulars. Feel free to let rip....

Hand 1
$0.1/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($22.75)
CO ($21.75)
Hero ($30.25)
SB ($32.10)
BB ($13.85)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, 1 fold, BB calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.80, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.75, BB raises to $7, Hero raises to $20.25, BB goes all-in $6

Turn: ($35.05, 2 players)

River: ($35.05, 2 players)

Final Pot: $27.80
BB shows:
Hero shows:

BB wins $26.45 ( won +$12.60 )
Hero wins $7.25 ( lost -$13.85 )

Hand 2
Im guessing this one is not great. Is this to light a 3bet and I should I be giving it up after the 4bet?

$0.1/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($32.55)
UTG+1 ($7.95)
CO ($15.85)
Hero ($30.90)
SB ($23.35)
BB ($15.50)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, CO raises to $0.85, Hero raises to $2.90, 1 fold, BB calls $2.65, CO raises to $11.70, Hero raises to $20.50, BB goes all-in $12.60, CO goes all-in $4.15

Flop: ($51.95, 3 players)

Turn: ($51.95, 3 players)

River: ($51.95, 3 players)

Final Pot: $47.30
Hero shows:
BB shows:
CO shows:

Hero wins $4.65 ( lost -$15.85 )
BB wins $44.30 ( won +$28.80 )
CO wins $0.65 ( lost -$15.20 )

Hand 3
Just dont know what to do here. So probably played it about as badly as possible?

$0.1/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($34.00)
CO ($22.40)
BTN ($60.25)
Hero ($24.45)
BB ($24.95)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is SB
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1, BB raises to $3.25, UTG folds, Hero calls $2.25

Flop: ($6.75, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $6.25, Hero calls $6.25

Turn: ($19.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB goes all-in $15.45, Hero folds

Final Pot: $19.25

BB wins $33.80 ( won +$8.85 )
Hero lost -$9.50
UTG lost -$0.25
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drmcboy
Old 09-21-2008, 07:39 PM #5 (permalink)  
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1)check behind or b/f vs unknown, once you get CR it's an easy fold

2) I would not three bet at all for a while unless it's with AA vs shorties on some other spot you can get a bunch of money in.

Once you do, def gamble. Rundowns do fine against big pairs, you just don't have to have KK here

3) fold flop, assume he has aces here until proven otherwise
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swiggidy
Old 09-22-2008, 03:45 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 don't show results

1) Figured J4 or J5, not sure why.

Go to twodimes.com and check your equity, and think about how it affects your hand before posting.

2) ditto

3) 4bet pre or fold flop. You played this horrendous

For fucks sake play 10NL, or accept that you'll be depositing $500+ to learn.
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BlueBull
Old 09-22-2008, 06:15 AM #7 (permalink)  

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BlueBull
Quote:
For fucks sake play 10NL, or accept that you'll be depositing $500+ to learn.
To be honest I am ok with depositing $500+ but in the interest of cooperation with my "tutors" I will commit to play 5000 hands of 10NL. If I do anything better than breakeven over those 5000 hands though then I will move up at that point. I know its a small number but it should be enough to get a feel for the basics.

Quote:
3) fold flop, assume he has aces here until proven otherwise
It seems after my first day that at these levels 3 bets are almost always AA or KK. I guess the play when facing a 3 bet then is basically to flat call with rundowns or nice pair hands (set value?) when you have implied odds and dump everything else? Do I 4 bet strong Aces? Given that I don't ever expect to fold KK/AA Is there any hand except Aces that is worthy of a 4 bet?[/quote]
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BlueBull
Old 09-22-2008, 09:06 AM #8 (permalink)  

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BlueBull
Ok. Well just finished my fist 10NL session. along with hand histories I will try to post summaries with this session being treated as my first:

446 hands
VPIP: 17
PFR: 8.5
Profit: -$12.85

So a losing session (I guess to be expected). Stats seem a bit tight but while I lack confidence post flop I will probably keep it that way.

Just a couple of hands:

Hand 1

Small sample but BB was playing an 85/55 game so I felt my hand was good enough to call preflop? Post flop what are my options?

$0.05/$0.1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($9.10)
Hero ($14.10)
CO ($11.10)
BTN ($5.95)
SB ($3.75)
BB ($40.55)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.35, CO calls $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, 1 fold, BB raises to $1, Hero calls $0.65, CO calls $0.65, BTN folds

Flop: ($3.40, 3 players)
BB bets $3.25, Hero calls $3.25, CO goes all-in $10.10, BB raises to $36.80, Hero goes all-in $9.85

Turn: ($63.40, 3 players)

River: ($63.40, 3 players)

[Results Hidden]

Hand 2

$0.05/$0.1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero ($10.00)
UTG+1 ($19.30)
CO ($6.00)
BTN ($16.80)
SB ($14.45)
BB ($20.35)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $0.35, UTG+1 calls $0.35, 2 folds, SB calls $0.30, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.40, 4 players)
SB bets $0.40, BB calls $0.40, Hero raises to $2.95, 1 fold, SB calls $2.55, BB calls $2.55

Turn: ($10.25, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($10.25, 3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $9.75, Hero goes all-in $6.70, SB folds

[Results Hidden]

Hand 3
Is 3bet/folding this kind of hand in this kind of spot standard?

$0.05/$0.1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($9.75)
CO ($18.60)
BTN ($10.55)
Hero ($12.45)
BB ($13.85)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is SB
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, BTN raises to $0.45, Hero raises to $1.55, BB raises to $5.20, UTG folds, BTN folds, Hero folds

Final Pot: $3.65

BB wins $7.30 ( won +$2.10 )
UTG lost -$0.10
BTN lost -$0.45
Hero lost -$1.55




[/u]
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drmcboy
Old 09-22-2008, 03:33 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 hand 1 I would just shove over the BB on the flop, you'd like to fold out someone with a similar draw, esp like a AKQ9.

hand 2 I'd just get it in on the turn, if they hit they hit, normally I would expect the straight to bet here. hopefully KQ doesn't have better diamonds and you have a bunch of outs. I'd also often just open limp here.

hand 3 as played the fold is good, but again I don't see any value in 3 betting this hand. you re open the betting for bigger pairs and 'best' case you're playing a huge pot OOP with a just OK hand. I said before you should lean to not 3 betting, that's even more true OOP unless you can just shove any flop. I'm not sure what your goal was here but don't expect people to do a lot of folding pre flop after they have raised.
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BlueBull
Old 09-23-2008, 08:19 AM #10 (permalink)  

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BlueBull
Thanks for the feedback drmcboy.
So is it fair to say that at these levels 3 bet nothing but strong aces?
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bigspenda73
Old 09-23-2008, 09:00 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 you probably could never 3bet in PLO and be a winning player, certainly could be the case for lower levels.

I'm not saying to not 3bet, but there is definitely merit in keeping pots smaller PF if you feel your edge is postflop. The larger you make the pot PF the more you are lowering your postflop edge.

It's totally different than in NL because there you can routinely have 65-80% equity advantages PF that you want to push, however, that just is not the case in PLO. Therefore, you want to keep the amount of money that goes in PF to a minimum and have the maximum amount of money possible to exploit your opponent's mistakes/tendencies postflop.

/tired ramble
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drmcboy
Old 09-23-2008, 01:37 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 As spenda said you aren't a huge favorite. I'm sure you 3 bet QQ+ starting out in HE, but I doubt you 3 bet ATs until you got a lot more experience. There is no BIG PAIR in omaha so you need to think totally differently about 3 bets.

If you're in there with some shorties or the pot is big enough that you can get committed it's fine. I would still 3 bet some good rundowns for balance.

Random thing, unlike HE where maybe people will maybe fold weak TP on the flop after a 3 bet pre, after you 3 bet in Omaha you'll get people gambling with bottom two pair hands, non nut straight draws, etc that they would have probably never have played vs a cold caller pre because they assume you just have aces. that isn't like horrible since often you'll have a draw also or have hit with your side cards or they will miss but if nothing else it will add a lot to your volatility. Plus they turbo fold on Axx flops without a monster draw.

This would seem exploitable but you need to get a better feel than I have for the game.
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BlueBull
Old 09-24-2008, 07:59 AM #13 (permalink)  

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BlueBull
I have played a few sessions since my last post. On Monday night I played when I wasn't really in the mood and just spewed over 3 buy-ins which I wish I hadn't of done. I dont care about the $30 but I want this 5000 hands at 10NL to at least be a winning 5000 hands and spewing off 3 buyins now and then will make that tough. I was stuck more than $40 at that stage.

Yesterday and This morning though I played 2 short sessions where I think I have started playing better. Feel more confident about most of my plays and I won just over a buyin in each session.

So total stats to date:
Hands: 1236
VPIP: 18.10
PFR: 10.6
Profit: -$19.10
BB/100: -7.73

Not very impressive but really in that one session I just wasn't interested.

Two hands from this morning:

Hand 1
I think I played this pretty bad but I find this a little tough. I am happy until the turn but at this point I dont expect villain to fold to a bet. With such a big draw is it ok to check? Since I went ahead and bet the turn anyway should I fire a third bullet on the river. I supppose its all a bit read dependant and I didnt know much about this player but in hindsight after playing a few more hands against him and realising he isnt folding much I think I may just have checked turn and river. Is that to weak with such a monster draw?

$0.05/$0.1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($20.10)
UTG+1 ($2.65)
CO ($11.95)
BTN ($10.40)
Hero ($13.10)
BB ($10.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is SB
2 folds, CO calls $0.10, BTN calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, 1 fold, CO folds, BTN calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.20, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.15, BTN calls $1.15

Turn: ($3.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $3.35, BTN calls $3.35

River: ($10.20, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

[Results Hidden]


Hand 2
Same villain. I think this is standard being "shortish" but just want to check there is no problem just getting it in with naked aces on such a dry board?

$0.05/$0.1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero ($8.10)
CO ($9.90)
BTN ($20.05)
SB ($11.85)
BB ($17.55)
[CO posted $0.05]

Pre-flop: ($0.20, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, SB calls $0.35, BB raises to $0.70, Hero raises to $2.55, SB calls $2.15, BB calls $1.85

Flop: ($7.70, 3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $2, Hero goes all-in $5.55, SB folds, BB calls $3.55

Turn: ($18.80, 2 players)

River: ($18.80, 2 players)

[Results Hidden]

Hand 3
So this is the same villain again. I think I should have raised this flop but turn card seemed like a bad one for me and I decided to just give it up? Is that ok?

$0.05/$0.1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($9.35)
UTG+1 ($17.85)
Hero ($11.35)
BTN ($14.05)
SB ($7.70)
BB ($1.90)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is CO
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold, SB calls $0.30, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.40, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.35, Hero calls $1.35, SB folds, BB folds

Turn: ($4.10, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2, Hero folds

Final Pot: $4.10

UTG+1 wins $5.90 ( won +$2.20 )
Hero lost -$1.70
SB lost -$0.35
BB lost -$0.35
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drmcboy
Old 09-24-2008, 03:27 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1 looks good as played, if he is calling a lot he's calling with a lot of hands you have crushed on flop and turn.

Hand 2 good

Hand 3 def raise flop, this is the flop you want with this hand. Often you'll be in against a bare str8 draw and be free rolling or he'll just have 4 outs or something.

Turn is tough, we have blockers to the big sets and I doubt he would bet quads. I think I would take one more off but folding is not bad since we don't really know what we're trying to hit.
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bigspenda73
Old 09-24-2008, 07:35 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1, river is a c/f, hard to move someone off of 2pair on this board.

Hand 2 is good


In hand 3, his bet sizing wreaks of a bet/fold, pulling the trigger can be tough in this game, especially when he probably cannot fold QQxx+.

I would have definitely raised the flop and stacked off.
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BlueBull
Old 09-25-2008, 08:11 AM #16 (permalink)  

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BlueBull
Thanks again for the feedback....

Had a really nice 500 hand odd session now winning over $30 and putting my 10PL career into the green for the first time.

I think I ran a bit good though making two nut flush draws and the top set hand below in tricky spots for me both of which I suppose I could have folded on turn. If they standard feel free not to comment but if I misplayed the hands below would love to know it. And yes, I know... maybe 3 betting not necessary but I am still trying to get comfortable with that. I am 100% sure my 3 bet percentage in this session was pretty low but when I get Aces I cant help myself at this stage... working on not doing it as much oop at least.

Overall Summary of 10PL Career to date:
Hands: 2298
VPIP: 18.89
PFR: 9.97
Profit: $16.94 (3.69BB/100)

Hand 1
Villain in this hand seems to be a pretty good player. I chose to check behind on the flop because I really felt like I was about to get check raised and didnt feel my hand could stand that. The turn is probably not a great card and my call there is no doubt somewhat loose but I was pretty confident of getting all the chips if I caught the flush.

$0.05/$0.1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($14.75)
UTG+1 ($20.60)
CO ($6.25)
Hero ($22.95)
SB ($4.80)
BB ($4.00)
[CO posted $0.15]

Pre-flop: ($0.30, 6 players) Hero is BTN
UTG raises to $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.80, 2 folds, UTG calls $1.30

Flop: ($3.90, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($3.90, 2 players)
UTG bets $3.75, Hero calls $3.75

River: ($11.40, 2 players)
UTG goes all-in $9.20, Hero calls $9.20

[Results Hidden]

Hand 2
I guess with double suited Aces here I probably should be 3 betting pre!!

$0.05/$0.1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($4.55)
UTG+1 ($8.50)
CO ($21.10)
BTN ($5.50)
Hero ($38.50)
BB ($3.40)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is SB
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 raises to $0.45, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.45, Hero calls $0.40, 1 fold, UTG folds

Flop: ($1.55, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.50, BTN folds, Hero calls $1.50

Turn: ($4.55, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $4.35, Hero calls $4.35

River: ($13.25, 2 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG+1 goes all-in $2.20

[Results Hidden]
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bigspenda73
Old 09-25-2008, 08:31 AM #17 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1 looks OK, turn spot is meh, you are deep and he probably won't put you on a bd flush if it hits

Hand 2 looks like a 3bet PF, as played you either should b/3bet all in on the flop or c/r' pot
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BlueBull
Old 09-25-2008, 10:42 AM #18 (permalink)  

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Thanks. Looks like Im still making a bunch of mistakes but I think the fact that I am keeping it tight preflop and playing with a bunch of players almost as bad as me at 10PL will limit the damage....
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swiggidy
Old 09-25-2008, 09:03 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 The problem with 3betting AAxx pre is if that's the only thing you 3bet it makes you very easy to play against, especially if there is a lot of money left behind.
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bigspenda73
Old 09-25-2008, 09:19 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 not in omaha man when we have 2 suits and we could be connected

it's not nearly as easy as a tight 3betting range is in NL.
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swiggidy
Old 09-25-2008, 09:50 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 Against micro-stakes players who only raise AAxx and KKxx, and raise every time they get AAxx/KKxx it is.
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BlueBull
Old 09-26-2008, 06:02 AM #22 (permalink)  

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In my mind and with my limited understanding of the game only 3 betting strong aces must be exploitable but from what I have seen there are not to many regulars at PLO10 that are likely to be noticing and taking advantage of such tendencies..... I may be wrong but I think I can get away with quite a tight 3 bet range at these levels and look to open up as I get better at this sick game!
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BlueBull
Old 10-03-2008, 03:42 PM #23 (permalink)  

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I started a new job this week so time for omaha is very limited at the moment but I will revive this thread sometime in the next couple of months. My interest has not waned.. just my time!!
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