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Kijjo

10-08-2008, 06:45 PM Post subject: Noob limit player questions

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

Alright, so I've recently discovered that I enjoy Limit ring games, couple quick noob questions for you seasoned vets:
1. Almost all the strategy guide post stuff is geared to shorthanded, why is that preferable - is it because of more preflop steals which avoid the rake or is it because you play more heads up instead of multiway pots or some other reason?
2. What is a goal or a great record of profit in limit? I've started at the lowest micro tables since I have very little experience and after roughly 650 hands, I'm running about 16bb/100. I know this is a TINY sample, but my bankroll can afford moving up quite a bit, I just want to make sure I've got the basics down before I go spew chips at a higher level.
3. Hand selection in full table ring games - I'm currently going about 20-25% of hands not in the blinds (nearly always raising when first in), so once including the blinds, I'm seeing about 40% of the flops, is that out of line?

I'm sure there was another question or two that I've forgotten. I appreciate your advice/comments. Thanks

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asdpikas

10-08-2008, 07:49 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

1. my guess is that at 1/2 and above it is usually hard to find FR games whereas there are lots of 6max. Nothing to do with one being better than the other besides your own skills/preferences.
Note: 6max skills are very useful for FR and viceversa
2. try to log 20k hands at the same level at least, to get a basic idea of how you r beating it. Regardless, if you want to start a bit higher because you can afford it and feel comfy with the stakes, there is nothing wrong with that. Bear in mind that variance plays a big part though, so really really really dont feel like GOD until you have logged many many more hands.
Micros can be beat for 5+BB/100 (sustainable)
Mid, i would say 2-2.5BB/100 would be a really great accomplishment
High stakes, anything over 0 is good
3. I wouldnt think so, it all depends on your Post flop skills. Post the hands were you find yourself in difficult spots on this forum to get advise. Look at PF charts from poker authors or accomplished players as guidelines, not strict rules.

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

10-08-2008, 11:47 PM

#3 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

I suggest following a preflop starting hands chart until you play like a shark.

Kijjo

10-09-2008, 03:39 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

Cool, thanks for the feedback so far. More comments still welcome.
I've been using Phil Gordon's starting charts - designed for NL, but I'm more liberal at playing the suited connectors because at this level you get to draw out so cheap/free so much of the time.

Here's another question - could I actually be hurting my own game by playing with people this terrible? I mean, I'm talking .02/.04 here and I won a pot last night for $1.26 with a scary board (flush and fh possibilities - I had the fh), but the dude has top pair good kicker??? This is an extreme example, but I'm just wondering if playing this low, I might develop bad habits that could become future leaks --> not trying to have a big head about this, just wondering.

Chopper

10-09-2008, 01:53 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

1) glad you find LHE fun. thats the first step on the road to NLHE recovery...lol.
1a) i cant give you any trends w/o contradicting myself. so, i'll just say that 6max is more about TP and less about drawing. if you can find those that like to draw, you can really isolate them and deny their odds in HU situations. FR is more about your hand's "potential" by the river. having lots of outs can be key if all your hands are going multiway.
2) aspdikas just said it all in terms of winrates. but, the variance can be BRUTAL. even 25k+ samples may not be truly indicative of YOUR winrate. so, dont take it too seriously. short term luck is a big factor in LHE because its correct to chase some pretty goofy stuff in larger pots, and its also very hard to deny odds much of the time at small stakes. (that was a hard one for me to grasp) i would say to run at least 10k before moving up...even though you are rolled for it. reasoning: you need to see that first bout of negative variance...you dont want to see it at the next level and start the self doubt there. but, i wouldnt be to discouraged if you hit a negative patch up a level or two. if you only run 10k samples before moving up, you may. search Ed Miller's site for his recent article on moving up comfortably (he skipped several levels despite being a pretty big loser up to that point). and, POST SOME HANDS. there are some really good advisors here and they can give you indications as to whether or not you should continue moving upwards.
3) hand charts are great for starting out. however, all situations are different. some will be stealing situations. some will be multiway limped pots. some will be shorthanded,or isolated, or capped, etc etc. LHE is much more profitable AFTER the flop, so quickly transition your focus to post flop play.
4) i thought that way, too. but, again, it took me a loooooong time to realize that this is the training ground for higher limits. these guys are bad, and your variance will be high. but, you need to start learning to manipulate what you do and why you do it at the cheapest stakes you can. then, it becomes easier to stay in line when you move up. this may sound like i am suggesting "fancy play syndrome." i am not! abc play works very well down here, but there are times when the "abc" play is not to lead out, but to c/r, or lead and use the raiser behind you to bump others out. you need to learn when is the appropriate time for each. slowplaying and cold calling are rarely, if ever, correct....although, you will see it done like mad.

generally, play down here is very passive. use that to your advantage!! then, when you move up, and the games get more aggressive, you can understand better how to manipulate YOUR style to maxxing out situations you are likely ahead, and when to let your aggro villains hang themselves because THEY dont adjust as well.

good luck. we look forward to seeing some questionable hands.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

10-09-2008, 03:24 PM

#6 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Don't follow NL starting hand charts. Limit is about hands that are strong and make top pair gook kicker or top pair top kicker on the flop. NL is more like I called a raise with a pair and took his stack when I hit my set.

The SSH starting hand chart is good, though

Kijjo

10-09-2008, 06:57 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

Thanks guys, I will see if I can put some hands up tonight. Main thing I'm screwing up on so far is hands like AK, KK, QQ when the flop misses. I'll try to find one of my hands from last night. Just so hard to tell when you're beat while holding an overpair.
I'll find some specific examples and put 'em up cause I know that's way better than vagues ideas.

Chopper

10-09-2008, 08:29 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijjo

at the smaller stakes, youre not beat....unless the pot went 5 ways and you are facing a bet and raise.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Kijjo

10-10-2008, 07:35 AM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

I guess that's the problem, it depends on the table, but many of the tables I've been at this week, I'll raise with AA in early position and have 5, 6, even 7 callers!
Couldn't bring myself to look through hh's from last night, but I was a card rack, I know at one point in 28 hands at one table I had JJ, KK, and AK at least 4 times. All of those I lost/got pushed out of because of crazy flops and raises except the last 2 AK's (one of which put me way ahead at least).
Just feel like I should be getting more out of those hands, but I guess that's where playing 6 max would differ from the big ring.
I put one hand up from tonight, would do more, but too tired.
Thanks again for your comments guys.

Chopper

10-10-2008, 02:13 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijjo

I guess that's the problem, it depends on the table, but many of the tables I've been at this week, I'll raise with AA in early position and have 5, 6, even 7 callers!

sadly, this is a good thing! you only continue on great flops, dry boards, or with reads. but, you are always looking for chances thin out a field. if the flop doesnt help you, you may need to wait and put a raise in on the turn when the card is safe and the guy to your right is leading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijjo

Couldn't bring myself to look through hh's from last night, but I was a card rack, I know at one point in 28 hands at one table I had JJ, KK, and AK at least 4 times. All of those I lost/got pushed out of because of crazy flops and raises except the last 2 AK's (one of which put me way ahead at least).

you need to POST those HHs. we can help you with concepts like relative position, protecting your hands, and when to call down vs when to fold. you may already know those, but in that case it would be nice to have some confirmation because the variance is a wild ride when all hands are going 7 ways. you will lose what seems like ALL the time, but the hands you win will be monsters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijjo

Just feel like I should be getting more out of those hands, but I guess that's where playing 6 max would differ from the big ring.
I put one hand up from tonight, would do more, but too tired.
Thanks again for your comments guys.

yes, 6max will help your AK/AA hands pay off more often. but, AA still wins more often than any other holding, i dont care where or how you play it.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Kijjo

10-11-2008, 06:23 AM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

Thx chopper, I hear ya man. Thank goodness for FTR, a place where we can get together and compare notes.

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#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
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flopmonkey

11-24-2008, 11:35 PM

#12 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 85

Quote:

Posted: Fri, 10 Oct 2008, 11:23pm
Thx chopper, I hear ya man. Thank goodness for FTR, a place where we can get together and compare notes.

Yes, this is a great site im glad i found this place.

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