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asdpikas

07-27-2008, 04:56 AM Post subject: Nobody folds, i got a pair!

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

Ok,
analyse please the play by each player:
1/2 Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($39.50)
CO ($29.00)
BTN ($26.25)
SB ($46.00)
Hero ($92.00)

Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 5 players) Hero is BB

1 fold, CO calls, BTN raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, BTN calls

Flop:

(9.5 SB, 3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, BTN raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, BTN 4-bets, Hero calls, CO calls

Turn:

(10.8 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, BTN raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, BTN 4-bets, Hero calls, CO calls

River:

(22.8 BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets, Hero calls, CO calls

Final Pot: 25.8 BB
Hero shows:

BTN shows:

CO shows:

BTN wins 25.2 BB ( won 16.8 BB )
Hero lost 8.5 BB
CO lost 8.5 BB

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Ragnar4

07-27-2008, 07:25 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

blah. since I know what villan had, it's hard not to call this a spew. Don't post everyones hand at the end pls.

Anyway. I think you are spewing when you 3-bet the Turn anyway. You hae to understand that Button is getting beautiful equity for his flush draw, and you're paying him massive amounts.

Most aggro players understand that they can cap a flush draw and a straight draw on the flop with 2 other players in the hand.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

asdpikas

07-27-2008, 07:45 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

I was looking for an analysis from each player point of view. That's why i included the hands.
I dont think i spew at all, if villain has FD i want to charge him a max with top set, if he has the flush i have a redraw.
I was actually more worried about CO than button, as button seems to be protecting another set or 2pair. CO seems to have flush and is happily sloplaying. I still know i'm probably beat on river when i dont hit my boat.

Ragnar4

07-27-2008, 08:31 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

4 betting when your opponent is representing a made hand that crushes you is usually spew.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

Ragnar4

07-27-2008, 08:39 AM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

Analyze play by each player?
Q8s is terribad to raise from the button, ever. I hate the play, but then he flops the nut flush draw against a very strong hand, strong because very few hands should 3-bet or raise out of the SB. Because you'll never, ever fold people who have to call 1 more bet to see the flop, narrowing a solid regs range quite a bit (AA, KK, QQ, AKs AKo AQ)
On the flop, he flops a nasty draw, and you flop a monster. I love the fact that he's getting so much money in. He's making 2% on each dollar that goes into the pot win or lose this hand.

There's no more to analyse here for Q8s because he has the nuts on the turn and puts the most money possible into the pot with the nuts, not only played optimally, but played perfectly.

For hero: I love going nuts on the flop. The 3 bet out of the blinds is standard. Some may argue for a simple call to disguise your hand, but only ONLY ever against 2 other players. Never more, never less.

Going nuts on the flop is 100% correct. You have the nuts
Going nuts on the turn is wrong, you don't have the nuts, and your opponent is representing a very strong hand, reguardless of the Flop action. If your opponents are solid you will always be capped 3 ways on a flush draw when the opportunity exists for them. You still can call to the river because A) your hand is very strong against your opponents range and B) you could catch back up.

Player with TT deserves a helmet, a diaper and a Droolcup for making it into the flop.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

KoRnholio

07-27-2008, 08:49 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Hero- just right, you can't expect button to have a flush here unless he plays his draws aggro and has KQs or QJs

Button- semi retarded raise against a limper with Q8s, got lucky on the turn

CO- ridonkulous;y hopeless cold calls on the flop and turn with 3rd pair in a 3bet preflop pot.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Fnord

07-27-2008, 10:31 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I think the turn 3-bet is bad because you want over-calls with top set after the draw gets there. Although his spewy flop 4-bet makes it hard to put him on a draw until he caps it back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Chopper

07-27-2008, 02:20 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

ragnar, just dont look that far down before you make up your mind. then, type your response. then, look at how you did. simple really. but, yeah, it does help if the results arent posted. but, here hero wanted analysis on EACH player. so, he had to post results to get what he wanted.

my first thought was the 3bet on the turn was bad. i figured you would want to trap all the dead money in the pot while you can, pray the 4th spaded doesnt hit, turn it back on if the board pairs, and control the pot a bit in case it doesnt and you are behind? so, i thought it a bit spewy, especially if you know the players here arent likely to fold.

Q8s, i cant see him capping this flop with that. but, he got very lucky. he's a fool.

TT, well, this guy is about the biggest moron to walk the earth. follow him around like a lost puppy.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

DrivingDog

07-27-2008, 02:47 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

CO is easy: limp with TT is lol, putting any more bets in once the flop comes AKx is lmao.

Btn: Raising limper with Q8s is bad in a loose game with little or no fold equity. Raising the flop is bad because if BB 3bets and CO folds he is now HU with the worst hand. My preferred play is to just call the flop on this board.

However, once flop is 3bet and called, then capping the flop is marginally ok because he has an equity adv. vs. two opponents (unless someone has a set <cough>) and he has position. These advantages are offset because he has zero fold equity on turn or river and is pretty unlikely to get a free card on the turn.

Hero: Preflop is good. Flop is fine. Turn bet/3bet is correct imo because your equity has to be high vs. opponents' ranges.

Just considering Btn alone, if we think about what hands he is raising here, most of them are AK, KK, 77, A7 (12 hands) a couple of them are spewy AxQs, AxJs, (2 hands), and that makes 14 hands where our average equity vs. button is about 97%. Note he would likely cap the flop with almost all of those hands. The three spades shouldn't scare him on the turn after our pf 3bet and flop 3bet.

For Btn to be ahead on the turn he would have to have raised the limper pf with QsJs or worse, and it's hard to think of many hands that fit that requirement - QJs, QTs, JTs, J9s, ...? Even adding in some other goofy hands like Q8s, 98s, 87s only brings the total to 7, and our equity vs. all these hands is about 20%.

So our equity vs. btn's entire range is about 70% + even if behind we have redraws = 3bet turn plz.

Now consider the merits of 3betting vs. calling with CO behind us. It's hard to put him on a hand and hard to look at him objectively given what he turned over. I actually think it's pretty close to neutral EV between getting an overcall vs. 3betting to fold weak spades and/or charge naked spades (and if btn caps with the flush and CO calls with Qsx or Jsx - or in this case Ts - that's also good for us), and I think overall the determining factor should be our equity vs. btn.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

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