www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

No Limit vs. $2/$4 Limit

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

jmrogers7

05-25-2004, 06:46 PM Post subject: No Limit vs. $2/$4 Limit

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2004

Posts: 1,112

OK, here are a couple of thoughts on playing $2/$4 limit for about a week now vs. No Limit. Please keep in mind that these are only my opinions and I would love commentary from any of you on these opinions. Also, I am not favoring one version of the game over the other. At this point, at least for me, the jury is still out:

Disclaimer: This is based solely on my experience. Your's may vary.

1) Caliber Of Play: The caliber of play (based on $2/$4 limit at Ultimate Bet) seems to be slightly better than playing $0.25/$0.50 NL (at Party Poker). Limit still has it's share of maniacs, call stations and fish. However, it seems to be that the quality of play is slightly better which, overall, makes me feel better because I know that as a general rule, I can play solid poker and expect to see certain results. All this being said, I think that the overall quality of play is higher at Ultimate Bet than it is at Party Poker. I love all of the fish at PP but I think for limit poker it has been easier for me to adapt to the play at UB. Again, just my opinion.

2) Reading Players: Getting a read on the players at my table seems to have been easier overall at the $2/$4 limit tables (save for last night). I find it far easier to note take on what people bet and how they do so with the fixed limit betting structure.

3) Pot Sizes: The average Pot Size is obviously higher at the $2/$4 limit table than the $0.25/$0.50 NL table. This is always an enticement and one that can't be overlooked.

4) Variance: Probably the biggest factor to overcome when playing limit poker is the short-term variance that you can experience. I have had starts to my night where I have been down as much as $75-$80, only to finish the night +$100. In NL, I find it is much easier to control that variance factor and the swings are obviously not as large. Although, I will say that I find it harder to walk away from the table in limit when I am down because I know that I am only one or two hands from being right back at even (given the higher pot averages) without having to risk my entire stack to do it. In NL there is something psychological about seeing that "$0" underneath your name when someone busts you out.

5) The Value Bet: There seems to be much more "value" in the value bet in limit vs. no limit. Slow-playing is much more profitable in my opinion, and you are much more likely to be called especially when trying to get a value bet in after the flop for the small bet. Although the probability of being sucked out also increases in limit.

6) Raising: One problem that I have experienced in limit is having a good hand such as AQs, for example, in late position and trying to narrow your playing field by raising. More often than not, anyone who has limped in before you act seems much more inclined to call your raise with their marginal drawing hand, making your hand that much more susceptible to being drawn out on (this may change as you play higher limits but this has been my experience at the $2/$4 tables). In NL, it is much easier to buy people out of the pot with your raise when they have a marginal hand and have limped in before you act.

7) Check-Raising: A valuable weapon indeed in the limit game. I cannot tell you how many times I have used the check-raise on the turn or river in the limit game when someone is putting a "feeler" bet out there after I check only to have me come back and check-raise them and have them fold because they have nothing. I have not found that the check-raise is used nearly as often in the NL game.

8) Suited Connectors: These seem to be much more profitable, at least in my limited experience, in the limit game than in the NL game. If you can see the flop for one bet and you hit you are much more likely to get paid off in limit than NL by someone holding top pair, hi-kicker than in the NL game. Many, many players will call their top pair, hi-kicker all the way down to the river in limit just sweetening the pot for you.

Anyway, these are just a few of my observations from my limited time playing at the $2/$4 Limit tables and the NL tables. Fnord, I know that you have also been playing these tables. Can you offer any other thoughts, opinions or suggestions? Anyone else having any thoughts on this? I would love to hear everyone's thoughts because I definitely value all of your opinions. Thanks!

"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

fishstick

05-25-2004, 08:21 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

as much as i hate to encourage jm in anyway, nice article. a really good contrast/compare of limit and NL.

questions:

did you try the $1/$2 limit tables? if so, how was it?

how many people are typically seeing the flop?

how tight/loose are you playing (e.g. "baby turtle's anus" tight

)?

how many hands are making it to showdown? (most i would guess?)

how many players usually at showdown?

good job, jm! (for an older guy on his 5th marriage 8))

Fnord

05-25-2004, 10:07 PM Post subject: Re: No Limit vs. $2/$4 Limit

#3 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

5) The Value Bet: There seems to be much more "value" in the value bet in limit vs. no limit. Slow-playing is much more profitable in my opinion, and you are much more likely to be called especially when trying to get a value bet in after the flop for the small bet. Although the probability of being sucked out also increases in limit.

Slow playing is less profitable. With a betting cap, you can't make up for a slow played round even if the other guy really wants to gamble with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

7) Check-Raising: A valuable weapon indeed in the limit game. I cannot tell you how many times I have used the check-raise on the turn or river in the limit game when someone is putting a "feeler" bet out there after I check only to have me come back and check-raise them and have them fold because they have nothing. I have not found that the check-raise is used nearly as often in the NL game.

A nessisary evil to protect hands like top pair. However, failed check/raises hurt. A big part of my game is being aggressive without being a check/raise bitch too often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

8) Suited Connectors: These seem to be much more profitable, at least in my limited experience, in the limit game than in the NL game. If you can see the flop for one bet and you hit you are much more likely to get paid off in limit than NL by someone holding top pair, hi-kicker than in the NL game. Many, many players will call their top pair, hi-kicker all the way down to the river in limit just sweetening the pot for you.

It depends. If you can limp in, in NL you're seeing the flop cheaper. However, if you catch a draw in limit it's harder to bet you off it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

05-25-2004, 10:11 PM

#4 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishstick

questions:
did you try the $1/$2 limit tables? if so, how was it?

About the same skillwise. The next big drop in skill level is at .5/1

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishstick

how many people are typically seeing the flop?

Tables tend to cycle from tight to fishy and back. In the tight cycle 2-3. When it gets fishy often 4-6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishstick

how tight/loose are you playing (e.g. "baby turtle's anus" tight

Outside of my button and blinds, extremely. ATo and KJo hit the muck pre-flop more often than not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishstick

how many hands are making it to showdown? (most i would guess?)

Most make it to at least the river. Often the made hand will value bet and the chaser will fold to the river bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishstick

how many players usually at showdown?

, 3, 4 isn't too uncommon when things get fishy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

fishstick

05-25-2004, 11:07 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

good, good info.

thanks guys.

jmrogers7

05-26-2004, 02:12 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2004

Posts: 1,112

Fishstick -

SECOND marriage, thank you very much! 8) And I think with Ripptyde posting his profile I now move down to 6th oldest, so phhhttthhhhppt!

Quote:

did you try the $1/$2 limit tables? if so, how was it?

Yes, and I would agree with Fnord that the skill level in 1/2 is approximately the same as 2/4. .50/1 is just a joke as far as I'm concerned. The variance is way to high for my nerves and my blood pressure soars with the ridiculous number of hands being outdrawn. Although if you can sit on the big hands you can make a killing because there are nothing but fish at that level in my experience.

Quote:

how many people are typically seeing the flop?

Anywhere from 2-5 depending on the feel of the table. As Fnord said, the tables cycle from tight to loose quite frequently.

Quote:

how tight/loose are you playing (e.g. "baby turtle's anus" tight )?

Personally, I think I'm playing a little too tight. I could probably mix a few more suited connectors into my hand selection. I tend not to play my SB to any raise unless, of course I have the goods, and I will fold my rags rather than complete my SB. I also am not opposed to folding my rags on the BB to a raise. I also have no problem folding KJo or ATo if faced with calling a 2-bet.

Quote:

how many hands are making it to showdown? (most i would guess?)

Most definitely make it to the river. In addition to the situation described by Fnord where the made hand will value bet and the chaser will fold to the river bet, I have also noticed many times where the 2nd best hand will try to bet the river, get check-raised and fold to the check-raise.

Quote:

how many players usually at showdown?

Mainly 2 (obviously) or 3. I have not seen to many hands where 4 or more go to showdown, but this could be a product of the slightly better caliber of player at Ultimate Bet vs. Party Poker.

Fnord -

Quote:

Slow playing is less profitable. With a betting cap, you can't make up for a slow played round even if the other guy really wants to gamble with you.

Good point about the betting cap. I guess I was just thinking in terms of the amount of the bet being that the bets are $2 and $4 vs. a NL value bet which might be more like $1-$2.

Quote:

jmrogers7 wrote:

Suited Connectors: These seem to be much more profitable, at least in my limited experience, in the limit game than in the NL game. If you can see the flop for one bet and you hit you are much more likely to get paid off in limit than NL by someone holding top pair, hi-kicker than in the NL game. Many, many players will call their top pair, hi-kicker all the way down to the river in limit just sweetening the pot for you.

Fnord:
It depends. If you can limp in, in NL you're seeing the flop cheaper. However, if you catch a draw in limit it's harder to bet you off it.

Agreed, it is cheaper to limp in but only because of the difference in table stakes. Absolutely agreed about it being harder to bet you off a caught draw.

"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun

fishstick

05-26-2004, 05:27 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

you know you're getting old when you have so many people on your whop-ass list!

good limit info again - i'll certainly make use of it. you fnord should collaborate on a limit article for the FTR contest.

oh, and maybe i am getting too old: playing last night, i meant to fold and clicked the "call" button instead

- it was only $3, thank god someone hadn't gone all in!

doh!

Fnord

05-26-2004, 06:22 PM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

You're not missing much. These hands play best in big ass "No fold'em" multi-pots anyway.

JTs +$25.50
T9s +$34.00
98s -$24.00
87s -$19.75
76s -$32.00

Agree, you shouldn't be cold calling 2. I like to re-raise to isolate or if I'm going to cold call, do it with a suited hand behind other cold callers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jmrogers7

05-26-2004, 06:47 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2004

Posts: 1,112

Quote:

JTs +$25.50
T9s +$34.00
98s -$24.00
87s -$19.75
76s -$32.00

I can't decide if I'm surprised by these numbers or not. From the number of hands that you have played in 2/4 thus far I think that those numbers are probably pretty accurate. Most likely a bunch of limping in with those hands and dumping them if they miss the flop I would guess, right?

I can't ever remember willfully playing any connector below and including JT that wasn't suited (unless I was on the BB (and maybe the SB) and no raises came in). Can't see the sense in playing those at any other time.

As for dumping hands like KJo and ATo to a 2-bet, I'm surprised at how easy it has been for me to do this. There was a time that I would play either of those hands from most any position. I guess I am learning something after all, huh? 8)

"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun

Toasty

05-27-2004, 08:10 AM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishstick

oh, and maybe i am getting too old: playing last night, i meant to fold and clicked the "call" button instead
doh!

I done this in a tournement the other day, I was chip leader and in the BB, I went to tick check / fold and before i did a SS went all in and everyone auto-folded it to me. As i clicked the button, it changed to call.

I had 96os and caught a 9 to break AQ, luckily i was the chip leader so it wouldn't have hurt me to much if I had lost.

I had a tight rep on the go too, i don't think they believed my explanation for the call.

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

fishstick

05-27-2004, 04:52 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty

I had a tight rep on the go too, i don't think they believed my explanation for the call.

96o? yeah, that's about right for "play anything" toasty!

if nothing else - you probably confused the table.

damn buttons!

johnnyawe

05-27-2004, 09:31 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: San Francisco

Posts: 1,064

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty

What poker room was this on? On Party Poker, the check/fold button becomes the fold button in this situation, which is a good design.
Its impossible to call when you meant to press check/fold.

Actually, to NOT have the buttons set up that way is horrible design.

I've also noticed on Party Poker that when I click an "auto" button at approximately the same time a bet is put down, the click does not go through.

Toasty

05-28-2004, 09:20 AM

#13 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

my bad it was the check button as i was in the BB and like to see if it comes down to me and the SB.

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:17 PM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

All Other (Limit) Poker

No Limit vs. $2/$4 Limit

Play for FREE and practice your game at...