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NLHE player jumping ship - advice on switching to LHE?

  
 
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lowBoy
Old 09-20-2005, 08:31 PM     Post subject: NLHE player jumping ship - advice on switching to LHE? #1 (permalink)  
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I'm thinking of hanging up my NL ring game for a while (although I might SnG for a while still) as I'm feeling stagnant and in a slight losing rut and want the change. I've been thinking of playing limit for a while now and I thought I'd give a stab at it.

I've mostly been playing Party/Empire 25NL for a year now, then I stepped up to 50NL a couple months ago. I have a fairly "proper" TAgg style, and can be disciplined, although of late I've been trying to get more LAggy, but I don't think it suits my game.

I can see the long term picture with poker and I've heard that moreso in limit, it's not about big pots, but about making less mistakes than everyone else. Quite frankly I wouldn't mind the lessened role on reads as well.

Basically, I'm just looking for advice on where to get started. I have a large enough bankroll that I can be playing up to 2/4 ($1100 or so), but I assume I'll want to start at .25/.50 or some such limit. The softer the tables the better... recommendations about sites?

Any good starting hand articles/links? Anything else is great.
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jmontis
Old 09-20-2005, 08:37 PM #2 (permalink)  
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If you don't have poker tracker, buy it.
If you don't have Small stakes hold'em, buy it.
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
 
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Fnord
Old 09-20-2005, 08:38 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I thinking we need a sticky, this topic comes up every 2 weeks.
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chardrian
Old 09-20-2005, 08:43 PM #4 (permalink)  
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eek

I'll agree that limit is "about making less mistakes than everyone else." But one of the biggest mistakes is calling too much/not raising enough - so it is about big pots... it's about the big pots you are failing to nab as your own. Read the sticky why you suck at hold'em. As far as sites go - no matter what level you are at, it's more about table selection than site selection.
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chardrian
Old 09-20-2005, 08:43 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I agree about the sticky.
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Shark Bait
Old 09-20-2005, 08:48 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Read SSH.

Don't play at party poker unless you're doing 2/4 or higher.

Read SSH.

With that big of a 'roll I think you'd be better off at 1/2.

I'm a fan of UltimateBet. They have a lot of small stakes games with only a 5% rake. Very good customer service.

I'm a terrible NL player, but I'll try to explain what I believe are some differences. Bluff less or don't do it at all. People will call down with crap and river a 2 outter much more often, get used to it, and don't let it bother you. Their poor plays make you money. Small stakes limit is very mechanical. You can play by the chart and and have an OK post flop strategy, and make money. Most of the discussion on here revolves around making money or making a lot of money. Once you get to 2/4 and above, blind play/stealing/defense becomes very important and all the rules are thrown out the window.

oh yeah....read SSH.
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Fnord
Old 09-20-2005, 08:52 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chardrian
I'll agree that limit is "about making less mistakes than everyone else." But one of the biggest mistakes is calling too much/not raising enough - so it is about big pots... it's about the big pots you are failing to nab as your own.
I *strongly* disagree (unless we're talking about .5/1 or similar games where it's 5+ way flops.) Over the short term it looks that way. But we all catch monsters, get too much action, catch someone second best, etc.

Beating middle limit style LHE for the max is about finding little hands, picking up pots that are for sale, putting in an extra raise with the best hand and the occasional laydown. That revenue stream from skilled play allows you to catch crap cards and manage to come out about even for the night. Then kill it the next night when the cards come your way.
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lowBoy
Old 09-20-2005, 09:08 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Wow, such quick and good responses.

I already have PokerTracker.

SSH is actually on the way right now - I had another friend who is doing quite well in limit recommend that book, so I ordered it.

I have sat down at a low-stakes limit table once or twice and played around - ended up a little, but was lost as to what I should be doing preflop with my cards relative to my position.
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jmontis
Old 09-20-2005, 09:29 PM #9 (permalink)  
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also, get used to variance, because it's better (and worse) than NL
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
 
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lowBoy
Old 09-20-2005, 10:03 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Pie in the sky highs and suicide lows. Gotcha.
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Demiparadigm
Old 09-20-2005, 10:15 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Am I the only person that thinks that limit requires more reading skill and creativity than NL?
In NL you can play about 10% of your hands and just watch the big pots slide your way when the fish give you their stack.
In limit you MUST learn how to pick up the small pots to beat the rake.
Yes, your profit comes from people paying off your big hands, but that profit will slip off the table quickly if you can't keep your head above water between monsters.
Also, I said this in a live game once after being called a "suckout" by a tilting rock:
"If you never suck out in this game, you are playing it wrong"

Here's the hand to give you a little insight:
B&M 20/40 LHE
I post in the CO
MP1 calls, MP3 calls(Rock) I check, sb completes, BB checks
FLOP(5SBs) TJ2
checked to Rock, who bets, I say, "Sorry, I gotta call you" and call. 3folds.
TURN(3.5BBs) Q
Rock looks hesitant, but bets. I call.
RIVER(5.5BBs) 8
Rock checks, I bet, Rock looks sad, and calls.
Rock has QJ
I show 9 2
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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dalecooper
Old 09-20-2005, 10:16 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Leave your bluffing expectations at the door. Particularly at the lower limits, you will almost never bluff. It comes along very occasionally in the form of stealing blinds from the cutoff or button with a so-so hand, or against that rare thinking opponent (they'll be the ones raising you on the flop all the time). Against the herd, don't bother. You're betting for value 99% of the time.
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Fnord
Old 09-20-2005, 10:17 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
B&M 20/40 LHE
I post in the CO
MP1 calls, MP3 calls(Rock) I check, sb completes, BB checks
FLOP(5SBs) TJ2
checked to Rock, who bets, I say, "Sorry, I gotta call you" and call. 3folds.
Ummm.... I fold this one... everytime...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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sandstorm
Old 09-20-2005, 10:19 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Did we get anywhere with the site-advice? I'm pretty much testing the same thing, and would like to play 1/2. Where is the best place to go? (Or does it not matter as suggested?)

(And yeah, I got SSH today)
>3

this is my favourite part of the post
it looks like angry boobs
 
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Fnord
Old 09-20-2005, 10:20 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Leave your bluffing expectations at the door.... Against the herd, don't bother. You're betting for value 99% of the time.
Yeah, but Limit lets you make thinner value bets which would be considered a bluff in big bet poker. Betting AKo unimproved into 2 players on a 994 two tone board is a value bet.
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dalecooper
Old 09-20-2005, 10:26 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
B&M 20/40 LHE
I post in the CO
MP1 calls, MP3 calls(Rock) I check, sb completes, BB checks
FLOP(5SBs) TJ2
checked to Rock, who bets, I say, "Sorry, I gotta call you" and call. 3folds.
Ummm.... I fold this one... everytime...
That's a question I was about to ask. The pot odds are good but there's no telling how many outs you have. Two two's are probably clean. The three nines might be, but there's a risk since they put three to a straight on the board; and in any case, it's very easy for bottom two pair to get counterfeited or beat by a higher two. Then you have backdoor flush and straight draws, but the backdoor flush draw may mean nothing if anyone else stays in this pot. To me this flop call looks very marginal.
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dalecooper
Old 09-20-2005, 10:35 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Leave your bluffing expectations at the door.... Against the herd, don't bother. You're betting for value 99% of the time.
Yeah, but Limit lets you make thinner value bets which would be considered a bluff in big bet poker. Betting AKo unimproved into 2 players on a 994 two tone board is a value bet.
Yes, very true. I had a hand go down like this the other day:

other player - raises in middle position
everyone else - folds
me - three-bets from the big blind with AK0
OP - calls
flop - three low cards, uncoordinated, none higher than a nine, two-suited
me - bets
OP - raises
me - calls
turn - puts three to a flush on the board (another low card)
me - checks
OP - bets
me - calls
river - pairs one of the low cards
me - checks
OP - bets
me - thinks it over and calls

He shows down AKo and we split the pot. There's a lot of thin bets and even thinner calls here. I might have let go of this one against certain players, but I had a bead on this guy (my actual note from two earlier hands: "bets overcards all the way down unless played back at") and a general sense that he was playing basically the same hand as me. A nine-high board didn't scare me. The pre-flop action said he probably didn't have an overpair. His play was a little aggressive for the flush. Overall I felt like there was a good chance we were splitting, a decent chance I might even win at showdown, and a decent chance I'd misread him and he really had something. For the pot odds I was getting on the river, it was worth the call to me. But the important thing to consider here is that neither one of us was really bluffing. It's just a different way of playing. I was betting with what I figured was the best hand; he raised (and took over the betting, thanks to his position) with what he figured was the best hand.
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jmontis
Old 09-20-2005, 11:16 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Am I the only person that thinks that limit requires more reading skill and creativity than NL?

Here's the hand to give you a little insight:
B&M 20/40 LHE
I post in the CO
MP1 calls, MP3 calls(Rock) I check, sb completes, BB checks
FLOP(5SBs) TJ2
checked to Rock, who bets, I say, "Sorry, I gotta call you" and call. 3folds.
TURN(3.5BBs) Q
Rock looks hesitant, but bets. I call.
RIVER(5.5BBs) 8
Rock checks, I bet, Rock looks sad, and calls.
Rock has QJ
I show 9 2
I think reading skill and creativity have nothing to do with winning this hand
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 09-20-2005, 11:47 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmontis
I think reading skill and creativity have nothing to do with winning this hand
True, creativity didn't have much to do with it.
Reading skill was essential.
As Fnord said, this is a pretty standard laydown.
If for example I was BB and rock was SB, I fold this every time. There are serious reverse implied odds in that situation.
This situation was exactly the opposite.
I put Rock on top pair. This is the ONLY hand he would bet. He would also bet an over pair or 2 pair and probably a set, but he wouldn't play 22(and I have a 2) and he would definitely raise JJ-AA. TT is possible, and TJ he wouldn't play unless it was suited. -he probably wouldn't play QJo or KJo either- So his most likely holding was AJ. I was fairly confident the other players would fold anything but a small flush draw or OESD, so I figured I was going to be heads up against TPTK. I figured all my outs were good (except running K-Q) and my 5 outs to improve on the turn were disguised enough that he would pay them off.
When he bet the Q on the turn, I *knew* he had QJs. He was afraid I had 89. So my 2 pair outs were gone, but I picked up straight outs, and had to call again.
As far as creativity, I also "gave" myself a flush draw. I knew my opponent was tight/weak, and if a spade came on the turn that did not improve his hand he would most likely check and make a big laydown when I bet my obvious flush. I knew this player was extremely tight weak. I gave myself the best chance I could to win a $300 pot.

EDIT: quick note- He check called on the river with top 2 pair, but was about to muck. The call surprised me, since I was sure he would not make the same call if a spade came on the turn.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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pokerfanatic
Old 09-20-2005, 11:50 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
Don't play at party poker unless you're doing 2/4 or higher.

With that big of a 'roll I think you'd be better off at 1/2.

I'm a fan of UltimateBet. They have a lot of small stakes games with only a 5% rake. Very good customer service.
Party's rake sucks at .5/1 and 1/2 but it is soft, a hella lot softer then the tight ass games at UB... personally I would rather take the variance and big pots then having to outplay my opponents and play all tricky...
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Demiparadigm
Old 09-21-2005, 12:03 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
Don't play at party poker unless you're doing 2/4 or higher.

With that big of a 'roll I think you'd be better off at 1/2.

I'm a fan of UltimateBet. They have a lot of small stakes games with only a 5% rake. Very good customer service.
Party's rake sucks at .5/1 and 1/2 but it is soft, a hella lot softer then the tight ass games at UB... personally I would rather take the variance and big pots then having to outplay my opponents and play all tricky...
I tend to agree with PFan here. Your winrate at .5/1 on party should more than make up for the higher rake.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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Shark Bait
Old 09-21-2005, 12:06 AM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
Party's rake sucks at .5/1 and 1/2 but it is soft, a hella lot softer then the tight ass games at UB... personally I would rather take the variance and big pots then having to outplay my opponents and play all tricky...
I agree UB is harder, but not that much harder. I find it hard to believe that the party .5/1 and 1/2 are so much easier to overcome a 5% rake increase. Although I have seen 4BB/100 stats there...

The main reason I say this is I look at how much I've won at a given level with a 5% rake, and then I look at the total rake paid in. Sometimes the rake has been higher. Double that and I'm in the red.

btw, the rake at UB 1/2 is very good. I believe it caps out at $1. The effective rake ends up being around 3%.
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thenonsequitur
Old 09-21-2005, 12:45 AM #23 (permalink)  
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When someone posts this question, I always reply:

I think Caribbean Sun Poker is the way to go for low-stakes limit. Rake structure is good. It has 5% rake for all levels (capped at 3 units of currency; it's a UK site so there are tables with dollars, pounds, and euros).

And very importantly, if you sign up through FTR you get a good rakebake deal (a little under 25% of the rake taken from you gets deposited back to your account every month).

Field is much softer than UB, and not quite as soft as Party, but still very beatable. Specfically, the players at Caribbean Sun in general have somewhat tighter preflop requirements than the players at Party (though in most cases still too loose, or tight in the wrong way), but they play just as terrible poker postflop as the players at Party. So you will run into less variance, but your profit margin won't be considerably lower. Take into account the lowered rake and the rakeback deal and your profit margin will be higher.

Personally, compared to Party Poker, I find poker at Caribbean Sun both more fun and easier to play (I don't have to make as many marginal decisions, and it's easer to get reads on opponents).

Also, Caribbean Sun Poker is a Crypto skin, and Crypto sites (including Caribbean Sun) tend to have good deposit/reload bonuses and frequently run worthwhile promotions.
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Old 09-21-2005, 01:10 AM #24 (permalink)  
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go to multi and get rakeback.
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Old 09-21-2005, 01:14 AM #25 (permalink)  
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I'd rather play in a tougher game with a smaller rake. Not only it makes me a better player, but its EV might only be marginally lower than a game with looser, wilder players but with a higher rake. Since it's a more challenging game it will be more fun. To me, poker is only 90% about the money I like to have fun too
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Old 09-21-2005, 01:21 AM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
To me, poker is only 90% about the money :) I like to have fun too
amen
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Old 09-21-2005, 02:13 AM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenonsequitur
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
To me, poker is only 90% about the money I like to have fun too
amen
OK, so how about you send me some money you are going to blow anyways so I can eat each month? I don't play the game to have fun I play the game to eat, pay bills, and make money... besides MAKING MONEY IS FUN!!!

I can raddile of many players here at FTR that play for the love of the game and for the money... GOOD POKER ISN'T FUN POKER!!!
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Old 09-21-2005, 03:00 AM #28 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
OK, so how about you send me some money you are going to blow anyways so I can eat each month? I don't play the game to have fun I play the game to eat, pay bills, and make money... besides MAKING MONEY IS FUN!!!

I can raddile of many players here at FTR that play for the love of the game and for the money... GOOD POKER ISN'T FUN POKER!!!
Good poker sure as hell is fun poker. Just because I enjoy playing poker doesn't mean I plan on blowing any money. And it doesn't mean I am willing to sacrifice profit for the sake of more fun. In fact, that's not really possible for me. Purposely making such a sacrifice would only have a negative effect on my mood and well-being.

I play poker to eat, pay the bills, AND have fun.
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