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R3N3G4D3

10-10-2005, 04:19 AM Post subject: Newbie questions that arose while playing

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 16

I have relatively little experience playing poker, have bought "Small Stakes Hold'em" book by Sklansky and read it once. Now I'm playing .05/.1 limit until I will have 10,000 hands trying to stick as close to the techniques I learned from the book as I can, however, I've played about 600 hands and noticed some patterns that are making questions arise.

1. Sklansky claims that usually 6+ players see the flop in small stakes. However, in the games that I have been playing people seem somewhat tigther than described. I usually see 3-5 other players seeing the flop, and as a result I use the "tighter table" approach. Am I playing on the wrong poker network or is this indeed the case? I'm starting to think that in .05/.1 most players aren't fish, but rather other players who are practicing the same concepts they have learned (except they play more passively).

2. Like I said, I'm using the table from "Small Stakes Hold'em" for "tight games (3-5 players)" when choosing my starting hands. After 600 hands (which I know is a small sample, but I think it's big enough for this pattern), I noticed that I tend to only play 24% of the hands, which I thik might be way too tight for small stakes. I've also noticed that a lot of much looser players on my network (who play 40-55% of the hands) seem to be doing better, they are earning as much as 0.04 per hand over a sample of 200 hands while I'm getting 0.003 per hand. Should I be playing more hands? And if so, which ones?

3. Examining my stats, I also noticed that I seem to be losing the most with pairs. What usually happens is I get a top pair in a seemingly ragged flop with high kicker, and either bet or raise if someone else bets. Needless to say, almost everyone calls (even when I raise, because often the bettor is sitting after me, so they call his bet first). After my agressive play on the flop, people tend to just check/call me on the turn and river, and then one of the players in the pot manages to get a two pair, trips, or even some backdoor flush or straight, and then I lose. Should I automatically tend to check/fold with a top pair by the turn + river if it didn't improve and people keep calling?

Thanks

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KoRnholio

10-10-2005, 04:45 AM Post subject: Re: Newbie questions that arose while playing

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by R3N3G4D3

1. Sklansky claims that usually 6+ players see the flop in small stakes. However, in the games that I have been playing people seem somewhat tigther than described. I usually see 3-5 other players seeing the flop, and as a result I use the "tighter table" approach.

At the lowest levels in a casino where people can only play one table, you will see extremely loose games like he talks about. Online (even in the lowest stakes) people multitable, which tightens up their play considerably. It's hard to see 50%+ of the flops on 3 tables at once. Keep using the approach he talks about for "tighter" low limit games. Value bet any chance you get.

Quote:

I noticed that I tend to only play 24% of the hands, which I thik might be way too tight for small stakes. I've also noticed that a lot of much looser players on my network (who play 40-55% of the hands) seem to be doing better

24% is probably about good, as long as you're adjusting your cards based on the looseness of the table. Throw away more hands like KJo, and play more hands like T9s if the table is loose and the pots large.

Quote:

3. Examining my stats, I also noticed that I seem to be losing the most with pairs. What usually happens is I get a top pair in a seemingly ragged flop with high kicker, and either bet or raise if someone else bets. Needless to say, almost everyone calls (even when I raise, because often the bettor is sitting after me, so they call his bet first). After my agressive play on the flop, people tend to just check/call me on the turn and river, and then one of the players in the pot manages to get a two pair, trips, or even some backdoor flush or straight, and then I lose. Should I automatically tend to check/fold with a top pair by the turn + river if it didn't improve and people keep calling?

That is the frustrating part about (low stakes) limit hold'em. Your top pair top kicker won't hold up nearly as much, but when it does, you will win quite large pots. People at low limits (or party poker) will often draw to as little as a king or ace overcard. Keep making them pay on the flop and turn, then bet the river if you still think you're likely holding the best hand.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

jmontis

10-10-2005, 07:57 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 1,296

games with 6-8 people to the flop take some searching, but they are worth the patience once you find them.

I am a firm believer that game and seat selection are ABOVE ALL the most important for any limit player.

Sometimes it's vague why, but I guarantee you'll see a difference in profits sitting to the left of a thinking-TAG and left to a loose passive fish.

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

Fnord

10-10-2005, 08:33 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

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Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmontis

games with 6-8 people to the flop take some searching, but they are worth the patience once you find them.

Personally, I find such games boring, tedious and fustrating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Hate

10-10-2005, 03:01 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 322

I thought that after I'd move to the normal (not begginer's) tables at Party, I'd be dying for some 40% VPIP. However,when I find such a table I usually don't love it. I love the tight tables now.

A'aag

10-10-2005, 03:11 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Loyal son of Rochester

Posts: 172

600 hands might be enough to get an idea if you're playing enough hands, raising enough, etc., but it is definitely not nearly enough to start talking about per hand winrates. Don't worry about it until you have a lot more data. Instead, try to play solid and post hands you have questions about.

newb1

10-10-2005, 04:01 PM Post subject: (inc lecture =/)

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 3

http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...php?order=card

From the above, you can see the total expected value of cards after over 122 million hands. Remember, these are from a variety of limits and players so even these shouldn't be considered "absolute".

Choosing which hands to play and which to fold is the easiest part of holdem poker. When you're starting off, simply play the ones that are recommended. Later on, when you understand why you're playing them and how the other people on the table affect your decisions, you can then throw away the charts and make better choices.
Table selection and post-flop play is where you'll make the money - there's plenty of topics on both here at FTR, check the stickies and read the hand histories here.

However, nothing really compares to experience when playing poker. You can read all the books and have the maths side fully understood but you'll still lose to people with more experience.
Play lots of hands, watch how people play their own hands when you're not involved - get used to trying to put the people playing on cards and see how often you're right. Then, when you've got more experience, put the other people involved in the pot you're in on a range of hands and play accordingly. The more often you're right about what they're holding, the more money you'll make from making the right choices.

The most important thing to remember though is that you can play perfect poker and still lose money in the short-term. If you can go back and look over your hand histories and be sure that you made the right decisions, then you should be able to make money in the long term.
It's the people who don't make the right decisions and end up "sucking out" on you, like hitting trips or two-pair on the river when they don't have the odds, that will pay you off long term. So just smile and realize that people like that, and there's lots around, are going to be making you money later on.

Be sure to look up "schooling" for when the other players may not individually have the odds to draw but collectively they do.
Variance is another thing to look for, this increases with the range of cards you play and the amount of people seeing the flop.

Read SSH, play some hands, go back and read SSH, play some more hands... rinse and repeat until you understand why you're playing the way they recommend.
In between playing and SSH, come here and read all the new posts and catch up on the old ones.

Sorry, I don't post much but I tend to try and make up for it when I do....

nomore

10-10-2005, 05:49 PM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 45

That was a great post, very informative and well put.

Awesome link too.

10-10-2005, 07:44 PM

#9 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmontis

games with 6-8 people to the flop take some searching, but they are worth the patience once you find them.

Personally, I find such games boring, tedious and fustrating.

I find them profitable.

BTW holy crap
the stats fit the SSH starting hands SO well
Sklansky did his homework
I'm playing only marginally unprofitable hands using SSH, but I'm playing them correctly :D (I hope at least)

oh yeah I see A9 loses less than 22
Maybe it's worth playing in small stakes games?

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