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Poker Forum |
Over 1,246,000 Posts! |
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| View Poll Results: Is QQ the worst chip bleeder hand? | |||
| Yes |
   
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1 | 4.76% |
| No |
  
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19 | 90.48% |
| What other Hand? |
  
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1 | 4.76% |
| Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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| Unicron |
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 About 4 months ago i stumbled upon texas holdem on a play site with free token games. It was fun, and i liked it instantly. It quickly became obvious the site was rigged, as 6 handed games were won with straights or above only. I decided to go to party poker and sign up. I played in their free money games for a while, and did about even in the 5/10 limit game. I started to study. I read Ken Warren, David Sklansky, Lee Jones ( a good book I think), and Matthew Hilger. I started to apply those concepts, and did much better. I then opened a real money account, and started playing the .50/1 limit games. Here are my problems as of now: 1. I understand that variance is a poker fact, but I have almost all losing sessions. 2. I dont play too many hands, 15% of flops seen, and play correctly for my position, but the blinds eat me up. 3. When I do win a few hands, I get a bad beat for the night and lose all the winnings anyway. 4. QQ is the worst hand in the world. Basically the players at these limits are terrible, but I cannot beat them anyway. I will raise and reraise with KK and get beat when an Ace flops by A-3offsuit. When I raise and reraise with AA the craphead with 6-9 makes 2 pair headsup. I dont think I can win at this level playing correctly, but playing every King, Ace, and two suited is dumb to me. I realize I am new to the game, but to be down 30% over 2 months is disheartening when I feel (and gone over records) that I have not made tons of mistakes or bad calls. Any help is appreciated. Thanks for taking the time. |
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting! | |||||
| thenonsequitur |
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Despair (lack of confidence) is the easiest way to lose at poker. If you're serious about learning poker, you can't be serious about giving up this quickly. You've read books, and your goal is to win, so you are already a way ahead of a majority of your opponents. Can you post some stats, like: # of Hands Played VP$IP PFR% Aggression Factor WTSD% W$@SD If you don't know these stats, get poker tracker, an essential tool for the online poker player. Also post a few of your QQ hands. And post some other hands indicitive of your most typical play (if you have a big leak, it is probably in these every-other-hand type hands, not in your rare hands). Post some hands where you had top pair. Post some hands where you had straight or flush draws. Post some hands where you had pocket pairs. P.S. According to poker tracker, QQ is my number two highest netting hand (right after AA), and my third highest money-maker in BB/Hand. T8o is my biggest overall loser, and 65s is my biggest loser in BB/Hand (must have lost a few strong-looking straights and flushes to better hands). |
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| midas06 |
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Patience, young Unicron. 90% of new players are losers straight off the bat. Experience and confidence are needed to succeed at anything, why should poker be any different? Keep posting hands and asking advice, and you will be destroying 0.5/1 in no time. |
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| Xanadu |
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1. I like to call QQ 'the third best friggin hand' because it is. It may not be third best 17 handed, but it most definitely is #3 10 handed or less. How many hands we talking about here? Through 5000 hands, my worst was KQs. But my other high suited broadways and offsuit broadways were fine. So no big deal. Are JJ and TT and KK all losing you money? If so, you might be making some fundamental mistakes. But if those 3 hands all win, there is no reason to suspect anything other than variance unless you have a couple hundred QQ hands to look at. I love QQ. QQ is so strong that you really, really have to play it bad to truly lose money with it and not just be having bad luck. 2. If you are really only seeing 15% of flops, way too tight. That might be fine for the games sklansky plays in, but you are giving up way too much. Get a copy of SSH if you don't have it to find out what you really need to know to beat bad players. Throw the Ken Warren book away. I borrowed one of his books from my brother (a very casual player). It was the first poker book I read. Almost useless. He actually said, and I kid you not, that he considers laying KK down preflop an expert play when facing a 3-bet. That plus dozens of pages of completely useless tables that could be stated in a paragraph. Complete and utter crap for the beginner's book it was intended to be. Useless to anyone at any level who wants to play well (but not as bad as a Cloutier book) G: It's probably time for you to put some bad beats on your crappy opponents. If they are as bad as you say, and you are playing as tight as you say, you are missing out on a lot of opportunities to play speculative hands that tend to flop good draws which reap handsom rewards on a loose table. 7. Even with a lot of bad players, .50/1.00 is not super easy to beat. I would not expect someone to win money at that stake online for their first try at real money hold-em. Even if they had read some books and take the game seriously. An example: 12 1/2: I learned poker playing 3/6 live. I was totally clueless my first night, but after that, I was definitely above average. It took me over a year and a half, about 2 8-hour sessions a month, and about $1000 before I really knew I was good enough to win a decent amount at 3/6 at the local casino. Now I KNOW I am good at that game. I know that in the long run I can make at least 2-3 BB/hr at the game. I don't play it anymore because online is better money. But the lesson is that no matter how hard you try, and how much you study, or how smart you are, a solid game of hold-em takes experience. 17 1/2: Learn how to beat crappy players. Learn how to have a bad beat and not get upset. Learn how to have a bad beat and love it cause you know you own that sucker and in the long run his chips will be in front of you. Drop down to a stake with really really bad players and learn how to absolutely crush them. Play .10/.20 until you have a 10BB/hr winrate over 5k hands. If you can't crush the worst of players, you shouldn't try beating better players. Some day you will see the same kind of play at a $10/$20 6-max table late on a friday night and that month you spent playing .10/.20 will earn you a thousand bux. No matter what stakes you play at, you will encounter totally crappy players. Sometimes a table full of them. Poker is all about exploiting your opponents mistakes. There is nothing else for you to win money from. As Fnord says (and I paraphrase) Above optimal play there is exploitation. pi/e: Can't argue with ending on a Fnord quote. |
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| Unicron |
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 Thanks for the quick replies all. I will share 1 hand with you from tonight, let me set it up: I won 3 hands out of about 30, up 8$ on the .5/1 limit table. I get dealt Ah-As in late position. (one before button) 1 early caller, 1 middle caller, I raise, get reraised from the first caller, reraise myself and both call. Flop is 10h-4d-7s First guy bets.5, second guy folds, I raise to 1, he reraises, I reraise, he calls. turn is Ad, first guy bets 1, I raise, he reraises, I reraise, he calls. River is the 7h, he bets 1, and I know something is up, so I call. I show my pretty 3 aces and he shows 7d-7c to get 4 of a kind! Im out all my winnings at this point. I have found a way to make money however, when i am dealt A-K, A-Q, A-J suited I will side bet the flop to be the opposite color and I am up 20$ doing this as the flop will always miss my flush draw completely. I truly believe that time will equalize all, but thats not what Im seeing for 2 months so far. As far as playing more hands, what hands where? I like suited connectors with 3-5 people, but not heads up. A-9off can be good but how far to go with it? Sorry to whine, but the cards I have seen makes me think poker is for suckers and those with unlimited bankroll. Firing bets blind without looking at your cards will win more than thinking it seems. Its not the money, I basically have an unlimited bankroll, but the losing all the time is what sucks. |
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| Shark Bait |
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| I cap the river. | ||||
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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| thenonsequitur |
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| Xanadu |
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| Yeah, once you have Aces full, the only hand of all possible hands that beats you is 77 for quads. If you slow down cause you fear quads, you've got a hell of a lot to learn from limit poker. Passing on a value raise because you fear the <1% chance you are beat ... | ||||
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| Miffed22001 |
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QQ down? varience or bad play. |
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| Ltrain |
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Have you read all the archived posts on this site yet? Most questions you will have over time have probably been addressed and dealt with. As far as bad beats, you just have to get used to it. Last night I had a boat beaten by a higher boat and flopped sets of aces beaten twice by a runner runner flush and a runner runner boat; all three capped at the river. After the runner runner boat, the conversation went like this: Villian: Sorry Me: It happens, gh. Even with this, I finished a little over even for the night. Give it time, if you are serious you will get better. |
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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| euphoricism |
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LTrain: I'm glad I'm not the only one who had "that night" last night. I hit sets with QQ, 33, 66, 55, and lost em all. And still ended up 2 bets 
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| pokerlearner |
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Unicorn, Welcome to the forum. You are a beginner so dont put too much expectations on results. Try to play the correct game and as Ed Miller says "money will come". here are some pointers. 1) Buy Ed Miller's book and read it and re read it. rinse and repeat. Throw all other books away. 2) Buy Pokertracker. 55$ is well worth it. it will pay you out many times over in the long run. 3) dont be results oriented. learn to make the correct play again and again even if you lose that particular hand. 4) dont worry about bad beats. I get bad beats and get mad just that second (still not up to that zen level yet  ). bad beats are a integral part of poker. otherwise, there is always chess !!5) read posts on this forum .This is the best. people are very helpful around here. if someone criticizes you, there is a good enough reason. you havent seen harsh criticism unless you have tried other boards like 2+2 forums. 6) learn to accept that some nights you will play PERFECT POKER and STILL LOSE huge. thats the way it goes. 7) and forgot, read bankroll management advice by rilla in beginners circle. its a MUST READ. also read all of aokwrongly's posts wherever you find in this forum. that guy's a genius if you follow all of that and keep learning, you will be crushing this 0.5-1 in no time and a year from now beating 2-4 game online. Here is an example. begining of 2005, i started playing poker online at 0.5-1 and 2-4 live. Today i dont play online anymore (because live games much easier to beat than online, though at lower rate) and play 4-8 and 9-18 live. |
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| pokerfanatic |
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| if this was 2+2 i would see the flaming fly on this poll... | ||||
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| midas06 |
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| Aokrongly is not a genius. He also doesn't play LHE. | ||||
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| pokerfanatic |
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Quote:
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| Demiparadigm |
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Quote:
If this were 2p2, This thread would already be locked.  To the OP: Incase you haven't read it yet... Why you suck at Limit Hold'em also, My quick thought for N00bs[/url] |
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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| Demiparadigm |
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Quote:
Both of Midas' statements are true and undebatable. The only thing up for debate is the relevance of aok's posts. In my opinion, All of aok's posts on psychology are insightful and spot on, and deserve to be stickied where they are. All of his posts on strategy are shallow and detrimental to the concept of good poker. |
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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| elipsesjeff |
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 Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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| pokerfanatic |
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Quote:
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| elipsesjeff |
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On the contrary, the original poster and the following comments were all worthwhile. It wasn't until the last group of people that screwed up the thread. If people still want to post on it I believe more worthwhile discussion can be had. |
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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| pokerfanatic |
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Quote:
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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maybe you can try something like the tiltblocker (original link here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...n=&page=0&vc=1) it covers how much money you have at the table. so...basically sit down with enough (around 30-50BB) and just play. what also helps sometimes is not even look whether you win a hand or not. it really helps remove all emotion from the game. i used to cover my cash. but now i'm to the point where i just ignore it consciously. about half the time i'll ignore if i win hands or not (mainly only when i multitable). one time i capped the river heads up when i filled my boat. needless to say, i assumed i won and went on with my business. when i glanced at my cash at that table i was way down more than usual. yep, the guy hit a straight flush on the river. not cool. |
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| Ragnar4 |
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Is QQ a chip bleeder hand? It all depends If you bet, and re-raise, and then see the flop comes A,K,5, all diamands and you're holding 2 blackqueens and there is all kinds of action post-flop and you don't have the brains to fold, yeah, it's a major chip bleeder hand. But if you're holding both black queens and the flop is ragged, say J,7,2 rainbow. you're doin pretty well as long as someone doesn't check raise you on the turn. (Fear JJJ) The simple fact of the matter is. Skalansky, and Miller both vociferously argue that we focus waaay too much on the hands that we play, and forget that hand selection is only part of the game. It is important, but not as important as the play afterwards. SSH Teaches us a few very important things. 1: Hand charts are CRAP! Instead, run all of your hands through this little paradigm of hand selection. 1: High Card strengh (the higher the better) 2: Suitedness (Same suit = good, not same suit, bad) 3: Connecty-ness (one gap and no gap connected is very good all others are very bad. cept for J8s, and Q9s) If your pocket doesn't have at least 2 of these three qualities, drop it like it's hot! This chart is also in order of importance. High card strength is better than suitedness, which is better than connecty-ness. Such a simple concept, but so easly forgotten. Honestly, if you're only playing 15% of your hands, you're too much of a rock. I honestly think that you are forgoing hands like 45s, and 9Ts and Q9s when there is plenty of action ahead of you in the pot these hands are winners as long as you play them correctly. I like to play Ace Rag suited as long as there are 4 ppl in the pot in front of me. Finally some food for thought. There are some times when it is actually correct to raise when you are on a draw. Think about it for a moment. Let's say you're on Ace rag suited on the button and for some miracle reason the entire table limped in. Flop comes 2 of your suit, and a garbage card. 1st player leads out, and everyone calls around to you. Do you call, fold, or raise here? Everyone and their dog knows to rule out folding at this point, no good reason. Drawing to the nuts as long as the board doesn't pair. Calling seems good. You have 2 ppl behind you that could get their money in. making for a max total of 9 small bets. Raising seems better. All of these yahoos already put one bet into the pot, and each one of them called all the way around, even if you raise and sb, and bb fold it is VERY likely that each person that called the first time will call the second time. putting what'll probably 14ish total sb in the pot. This is the part where you cry: but Ragnar4, what if I miss my draw? Ahhh, that's where the odds come into play. We all know that someone has to win the pot, no matter what happens. Make the math easy, you raise, and BB, and SB, both call. 10 people are in the hand, you are therefore responsible for 10% of the money that went into the pot. You're going to win this hand 35% of the time from here. Not just 10%. That's right, even though you're only responsible for 10% of the pot, you're gonna win it 25% more than your fair share of the time. This is HUGE! Even if you're on a flush draw against 2 other players you should be raising! Because you're only responsible for 33.3% of the pot that you're going to win 35% of the time. That's what people are talking about when they suggest that a play has +EV (postive expected value) even if you miss the hand, this play will make you money in the long run. The trick is to only make plays in position that give you +EV, and avoid the ones that give you -EV. Making it impossible to lose money at this game over the long run. I know that my post was long winded. But Small Stakes Holdem is VERY poingant about players that are only worried about how their hole cards, and they forget that flop, turn, and river, where you make the bulk of your money, are yet to come. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| Unicron |
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 I wanted to thank all for the constructive ideas given to me. I have ordered the Miller book, it should be delivered today and I will read it over the weekend. The last poster had it right though, I will muck hands like 45s and Q9s unless theres like 7 people seeing the flop. I think I do get too caught up in the "How am I doing right now" mentality. It has helped me to stand back, read the input here, and look again at what I have been doing. Thanks to all that have contributed. I still think QQ has been bad to me lately, but maybe she will make it up. I will read and practice this weekend and see if I cant turn this around. thanks again all. |
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| pokerlearner |
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Unicorn. " I will read and practice this weekend and see if I cant turn this around" WRONG AGAIN. Its not about this weekend, or this session or this week. Its about making the correct play OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Sometimes a great player plays well but will still lose over a week (depending on how many hands he plays of course). Read on variance. You could play correctly and still lose in the short run. but if you keep playing correctly, the odds will catch up, and "money will come to you". |
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| Unicron |
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I meant that I will read the book (it is here) this weekend, not just try it this weekend. Also, the name is UNICRON, like the monster robot planet from the Transformers! Thanks again to all, I do appreciate the help. |
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| Latest Poker News | |
| KoRnholio |
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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| According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... | |
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