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littleogre
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06-26-2006, 12:44 AM
Post subject: Need help with playing AT off suit.
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I only have 63 samples of this hand in my pt db but it is a huge leak for me at-16.05. Is this hand junk? if not how should it be played?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Aggressively, but carefully as well. You have to play cautiosly when you hit your ace if there is aggression against you. Position helps.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok lets say there is a raise before me and i am in middle position. Should i limp or reraise? If i reraise i face the prospect of being 3 bet but if i limp i wind up in a big family pot. Also not sure if the following info will help anyone to help me but contrary to AT off AJ off is a big winner for me after 57 samples it is +22.5
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Cold calling is bad, 3betting in a full ring is pretty bad as well unless you're against a maniac. I would treat AT more like AJ and less like A9 than anything. Just like you should treat AQ more like AK than AJ.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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I've had ATo 96 times in 12k hands, all full ring:
Win % 25
BB/Hand +0.24
VP$IP 48%
W$WSF 45%
PFR 23%
WtSD 38%
W$SD 62.5%
The games I play in tend to be fairly tight and fairly aggressive, and I folded this hand every time from 7, 6, 5, and 4 spots off the button if there were no limpers. From mp2 on I'll usually open raise, and I'll raise from any position if I think I can isolate one or two weak-playing, loose limpers. I'm just not fond of limping with this hand except in loose, passive games--it's too easy to get isolated out of position. To give just one example, if you limp with ATo UTG, you'll be tied or dominated, or playing against AA-JJ, something like 40% of the time (and that's a pure guess at the moment--just don't have time to do the math). You'll be out of position most of the time, and often raised. That's a lot of ev to give away. It's not a junk hand, but it's more of a raise or fold hand, from mp2 (or mp3) and later positions.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I would asuume that it is always correct to raise an unraised pot from Lp with several limpers already in the pot. Or is it better to just call and try to hit a big hand? I always raise and this seems to be one the things that gets me in trouble. The raise rarely gets many limpers to fold. Then i hit tptk and keep beting all the way untill someone pushes back. Usually 1 of 2 things happens. i either get sucked out on or get taken out by a passive AJ-Ak or some dude that didn't see fit to 2 bet there pocket Jacks through aces.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
The raise rarely gets many limpers to fold.
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Do you expect it to?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by outphase
Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
The raise rarely gets many limpers to fold.
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Do you expect it to? |
Well i would expect it should atleast get 1 or 2 to fold and it usualy does but even then i sometimes find myself in a pot with 4 or more people and by then the pot is so big it is impossibe to push them off of any kinda draw.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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You really see a raise get folds here? In my experience a single preflop raise makes a limper to fold like half a percent of the time or less.
Then again I don't ever play in rocky games and I hear that party full ring is a rock garden, so I dunno how limpers usually react to a raise in that type of game.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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A raise should let players that tried to see a cheap flop with weak hands know it's time to fold. In low limits where i play people will limp in with nearly any 2 cards. Then even after i raise the will proceed to call the extra bet with hands like 9/6 off. Not trying to argue just looking for advice. Is any one here gona tell me that it is correct for a player to limp in with a double gapped unsuited hand then call another bet after i raise? So yes i do expect a raise to get rid of the really junky hands.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Not trying to argue just looking for advice. Is any one here gona tell me that it is correct for a player to limp in with a double gapped unsuited hand then call another bet after i raise?
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No to their first part, but depending on how many people are also in the pot, their second call is usually correct.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Yes, the second call is much more correct than the first call, and only idiots limp then fold to a raise preflop. Its like someone blind stealing on the button only to fold to a threebet preflop. Doesnt make anysense!
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Lets look at an example.
Small blind posts, big blind posts.
UTG limps
MP limps
You raise with ATo from wherever.
SB calls, BB calls.
What odds are the two limpers getting on their second call?
Blinds are 1.5SB
two limpers 2sb, total 3.5 sb
you raise 2sb, so now theres 5.5sb in the pot
SB calls .5, BB calls 1, so 7sb in the pot.
First limper getting immediate 7:1 with implied of 8:1 (he can expect the other limper to call)
Second limper getting 8:1.
While the jury is still out on "exactly what odds do I need to call with offsuit connectors and gappers", 8:1 is pretty hard to turn away from.
Now you have implied odds of "if I flop it hard, I'll get paid well" and this becomes essentially a mandatory call on the second trip around.
Thats not to say their first limp was correct, but their second call was.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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it will actually shock me more if a limper folds to a raise instead of calling along. If they voluntarily put the first one in, the 2nd one is going in immediately. You have an idealistic (NLHE-style) view of a preflop raise getting folds against limpers.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
Lets look at an example.
Small blind posts, big blind posts.
UTG limps
MP limps
You raise with ATo from wherever.
SB calls, BB calls.
What odds are the two limpers getting on their second call?
Blinds are 1.5SB
two limpers 2sb, total 3.5 sb
you raise 2sb, so now theres 5.5sb in the pot
SB calls .5, BB calls 1, so 7sb in the pot.
First limper getting immediate 7:1 with implied of 8:1 (he can expect the other limper to call)
Second limper getting 8:1.
While the jury is still out on "exactly what odds do I need to call with offsuit connectors and gappers", 8:1 is pretty hard to turn away from.
Now you have implied odds of "if I flop it hard, I'll get paid well" and this becomes essentially a mandatory call on the second trip around.
Thats not to say their first limp was correct, but their second call was.
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Ok ty for the explanation but would should i do with A/10 off in late position when several limpers are in the pot already?
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Harry
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Philly
Posts: 722
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I hear where you're coming from ogre, I face a lot of the same problems. I don't think just limping is that wrong in your example. I don't think rasing is wrong either, though.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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In all actuality, it probably doesn't matter much what you do. I prefer to raise.
If you think you can buy the button and hence get free cards when you want them, definitely raise. Having the button is good.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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I lean toward raising if anything to "strike fear" into the players in the hand. you can get those who know how to fold to believe you have a better hand and force them to fold their own better hands
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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If you have Miller et als Small Stakes Hold'em he does a good job discussing playing ATo (and KJo) preflop on pp. 73-74
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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I was just re-reading King Yao's book, and here are his "default" recommendations for ATo:
1. Always fold in EP.
2. In MP, open-raise; call after limpers; and fold against any raise regardless of how many cold callers there are.
3. In LP, open-raise; call after most limpers but if there are only 1 or 2 limpers and they are weak players, raise; 3-bet against a single loose late position raiser; and fold to all other raises.
He makes these recommendations assuming a 9-handed game with two good opponents, three decent opponents, and three bad opponents.
But clearly default recommendations are just recommendations and nothing more. If the mix of players is different, or if the relative positions of the players to you makes a difference, or something with table image is going on, etc...then the defaults should be adjused.
He also has an interesting discussion of the relative preflop value of ATo vs. T9s in different situations on p.166-168.
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