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TylerK
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05-18-2005, 11:09 PM
Post subject: My VP$IP over 10k+ hands
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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...is 14%. Is that too low? Any threads I should read on this?
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Sounds a little low. I'd bring a few more hands in from LP depending on limpers.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Not bad for a beginner. When you get better post-flop add more hands.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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how many tables?
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
how many tables?
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Usually 4 lately, anywhere between 2 and 4.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
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at 4 tables a 14% VPIP is fine. i'd be worried if you consistently got 14 playing 1 table tho.
you can loosen up towards 18% tho.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I'm running about 16-17% VP$IP 12% PFR these days at 3/6. Remember the 1/3 blind structure will bring down your VP$IP because you're forced to play fewer hands. However, the great part about this game is that the aware players take this too far and can be easily pushed around.
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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I'm assuming you play small stakes on Party in which case yes 14% is too low.
You are missing out on profitable hands and probably blind steals, late position raises and blind defence aswell.
Try posting a screenshot of your PT positions tab and also tell us your attempt to steal blind and folded to steal numbers.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
I'm assuming you play small stakes on Party in which case yes 14% is too low.
You are missing out on profitable hands and probably blind steals, late position raises and blind defence aswell.
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Fair enough, but many newer players spew lots of chips trying to play out these situations. Learning to play well, but a little too tight is a critical first step IMHO.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
Try posting a screenshot of your PT positions tab and also tell us your attempt to steal blind and folded to steal numbers.
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The 2/4 stats include a bad run on Stars, without that site my BB/100 is the same as for 1/2. 3/6 so far is awful but only a few hands.
The att to steal and folded to steal numbers, I assume, show that I am not defending my blinds nearly enough. Any advice about where those numbers should be?

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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Fnord
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Me play g00t.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Damn that's over 4 BB/100.
Small sample size, you're running well, blah blah blah
Are those 3/6 numbers?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lonnie
Are those 3/6 numbers?
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Yeah, it's all Party 3/6. In the last month or so a light-bulb went on reguarding how I could beat these games for more money. Mostly table/seat selection stuff with some pre-flop adjustments thrown in.
Me play g00t.
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Great stats Fnord
The fact that your Button and CO are more than offesetting the blinds is great.I have been looking at a variety of stats and that seems to be a really good sign. Many folks on a good run are not covering their blind losses with there last 4 positions!!!! You are doing it with 2 positions .
Great playing.
PS. For a low VP, TAG, isn't there quite a bit of limping when you are first in the pot, or am I reading this wrong.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
Try posting a screenshot of your PT positions tab and also tell us your attempt to steal blind and folded to steal numbers.
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The 2/4 stats include a bad run on Stars, without that site my BB/100 is the same as for 1/2. 3/6 so far is awful but only a few hands.
The att to steal and folded to steal numbers, I assume, show that I am not defending my blinds nearly enough. Any advice about where those numbers should be?

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Your VPIP on the button should be in the early 20's. After several limpers a lot of hands can be played profitably.
After say 4 limpers in late position you can play hands like suited Kings, J8s/J9s, Q9s/Q8s, suited connectors and suited one gappers like 86s.
You aren't playing many hands in early position either. Here's my UTG strategy which I'm sure isn't perfect.
Raise: AA - 99 (88-77 sometimes)
AKs - ATs (A9s sometimes)
AKo - AJo
KQo, KQs - KJs
Limp: A2s - A9s
22 - 88
QJs - QTs (Q9s sometimes)
KTs, JTs
Sometimes T9s
I've probably missed some hands out and this is all table dependant of course. But this should give you an idea of how many hands can be played profitably.
Also, when it's folded to you in MP try raising hands you would normally fold without limpers. Like small suited broadways and some pairs like 55/66+. I can't tell from your stats that you don't already but I'm just guessing.
Your PFR will raise as you gain experience, so will your blind steal number which isn't that bad. A good number to shoot for is about 30%.
You are folding your blinds way too much but it's not really worth worrying about at this stage. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. Although don't forget that it's +EV to call with suited crap out of the BB in a multiway pot.
Example: UTG raises and 4 players including SB call, I'm calling 26s in the BB here.
This post turned out quite long but I hope it helps.
Once I get photobucket to work I'll post my positions screenshot.
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
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Hope this works.
This is all the hands I have from 2/4 and 3/6 at Party, about 7k of each.
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
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dear God I'm 22% VPIP. Do I suck (this is mostly .5/1, 1/2, also only 4300 hands)? I'm getting >3 BB/100 out of it...
I have some cold calling from pos. 5 and 6, need to get rid of those....
Time for HEFAP?
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LeFou
dear God I'm 22% VPIP. Do I suck (this is mostly .5/1, 1/2, also only 4300 hands)? I'm getting >3 BB/100 out of it...
I have some cold calling from pos. 5 and 6, need to get rid of those....
Time for HEFAP?
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0.5/1 and 1/2 are very different to 2/4 and 3/6. There are much fewer preflop raises and many more players see the flop, therefore more hands are +EV to limp. Also your sample size is only 4.3k hands so you could just be running hot.
22% is fine at the right tables and assuming you are excellent post-flop. If you are not excellent after the flop then it's likely that some hands you play are costing you money.
At 0.5/1 on Party I frequently cold-call small pairs UTG+1 because I know there will be several other callers and a 3-bet is unlikely.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Phyl - I find it interesting that you open limp so much from UTG. Almost half of the time. Yet, your PFR is 12%.
Quote:
Raise: AA - 99 (88-77 sometimes)
AKs - ATs (A9s sometimes)
AKo - AJo
KQo, KQs - KJs
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If you REALLY raise these hands from UTG, then just what are you limping, because you are limping half the time.
ATs is certainly not a UTG raise for me. I throw it and A9s away UTG.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lonnie
ATs is certainly not a UTG raise for me. I throw it and A9s away UTG.
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ATs is at least a limp from UTG and A9s is an easy call at the right table. You are throwing money away.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
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You are throwing money away.
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I figured I was. How much money is it? How many BB/100 are you making limping ATs and A9s from UTG?
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
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I think you guys are entering the realm of hands that could go either way in EP. Sure they have value when played under the right conditions, but that comes down to knowing your table and players.
People just starting out should try to avoid these marginal hands because they won't play them under the correct conditions often enough to keep them profitable.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
Limp: A2s - A9s
22 - 88
QJs - QTs (Q9s sometimes)
KTs, JTs
Sometimes T9s
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Is this profitable at a random 3/6 table? The games I've been in have been pretty aggro, so any time I limp there is a pretty good chance it's going 2-4 way raised to the flop. Not good for most of these hands. Hence, I've started folding them unless the table texture is such I expect most pots to go 5+ way. Also, I open raise QJs, 88,77 and sometimes 66 when the table is kinda aggro.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Then I do silly things like this...
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter
Preflop: Fnord is UTG with 9 , T .
Fnord raises, 4 folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Fnord calls.
Flop: (7.33 SB) 5 , J , 6 (2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets, Fnord calls.
Turn: (4.66 BB) A (2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets, Fnord raises, Button calls.
River: (8.66 BB) 9 (2 players)
Fnord bets, Button calls.
Final Pot: 10.66 BB
Results in white below:
Fnord has 9s Ts (flush, ace high).
Button has Ac Ks (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Fnord wins 10.66 BB.
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter
Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with 9 , T . CO posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, Fnord raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Fnord calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.
Flop: (13 SB) 9 , J , 4 (4 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, MP2 folds, CO folds, SB 3-bets, Fnord calls.
Turn: (9.50 BB) 2 (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.
River: (11.50 BB) 9 (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, SB calls.
Final Pot: 15.50 BB
Results in white below:
Fnord has 9d Td (three of a kind, nines).
SB has Kh Kd (two pair, kings and nines).
Outcome: Fnord wins 15.50 BB.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
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OT, Phyl is my favorite new poster.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lonnie
Phyl - I find it interesting that you open limp so much from UTG. Almost half of the time. Yet, your PFR is 12%.
Quote:
Raise: AA - 99 (88-77 sometimes)
AKs - ATs (A9s sometimes)
AKo - AJo
KQo, KQs - KJs
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If you REALLY raise these hands from UTG, then just what are you limping, because you are limping half the time.
ATs is certainly not a UTG raise for me. I throw it and A9s away UTG.
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I wrote what I limp under what I raise. According to my screenshot I limp UTG 5.86% of the time over a small sample size. I don't understand what you mean.
At the right tables low suited Aces are profitable UTG but sure it can go either way depending on post-flop skill. ATs is a different story, it has a large equity edge and is +EV. I think it's an easy raise, you definitely should not be throwing it away.
Edit: What I limp is debatable for the average game but most of these raises are easy. 99, KQo and AJo can go either way but the rest are easy and you shouldn't be folding any hands I've listed as a raise.
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
Limp: A2s - A9s
22 - 88
QJs - QTs (Q9s sometimes)
KTs, JTs
Sometimes T9s
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Is this profitable at a random 3/6 table? The games I've been in have been pretty aggro, so any time I limp there is a pretty good chance it's going 2-4 way raised to the flop. Not good for most of these hands. Hence, I've started folding them unless the table texture is such I expect most pots to go 5+ way. Also, I open raise QJs, 88,77 and sometimes 66 when the table is kinda aggro.
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Probably not, but then again most Party 3/6 tables aren't that good for what 3/6 should be. I only play the best tables and I put time into game selection, I also try and play at the best times of day. If EP limpers are frequently being isolated by TAGs then several of these limps are bad. But you shouldn't really be playing those games anyway.
At a loose passive table all the limps (with the exception of T9s and Q9s which depend) can be +EV.
I haven't played 3/6 in a while so maybe A2s is no longer good if the games have worsened but I can't imagine they've got so bad you can't limp QTs etc. UTG.
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Then I do silly things like this...
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter
Preflop: Fnord is UTG with 9  , T  .
Fnord raises, 4 folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Fnord calls.
Flop: (7.33 SB) 5  , J  , 6 (2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets, Fnord calls.
Turn: (4.66 BB) A (2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets, Fnord raises, Button calls.
River: (8.66 BB) 9 (2 players)
Fnord bets, Button calls.
Final Pot: 10.66 BB
Results in white below:
Fnord has 9s Ts (flush, ace high).
Button has Ac Ks (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Fnord wins 10.66 BB.
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter
Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with 9  , T  . CO posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, Fnord raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Fnord calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.
Flop: (13 SB) 9  , J  , 4 (4 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, MP2 folds, CO folds, SB 3-bets, Fnord calls.
Turn: (9.50 BB) 2 (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.
River: (11.50 BB) 9 (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, SB calls.
Final Pot: 15.50 BB
Results in white below:
Fnord has 9d Td (three of a kind, nines).
SB has Kh Kd (two pair, kings and nines).
Outcome: Fnord wins 15.50 BB.
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You've lost me. Why are you raising this? Aren't you going to end up seeing the flop 3 ways for 2 bets most of the time?
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OT, Phyl is my favorite new poster.
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Awesome, I think I'll stick around. Something about this forum that makes it more appealing than 2+2.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
You've lost me. Why are you raising this? Aren't you going to end up seeing the flop 3 ways for 2 bets most of the time?
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Deception, to get action on my better hands and force my opponents to make a hand. Quite often I just get cold-donked or get the blinds heads-up. If the table was looser I would have limped. In retrospect I should have just folded, but I was running over the table at the time.
Given the table texture, I'd rather raise than call because a call might make one of the ABCers raise behind me with a hand like 88/77/AT/A9 that they might otherwise laydown.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Sorry, I completely misread the post. Now that I think I read it correctly, it looks like you are recommending to limp a bunch of junk hands UTG. What stakes is this play referring to? What kind of flop % are you looking for to do this? Quite frankly this looks like a good way to get slaughtered.
I will say though, that when there are early limpers, there tends to be a lot more limping behind, and a general reluctance to raise behind except with the strongest of hands. I guess I would have to try this UTG limp-style before I could really comment much further on it.
Quote:
You aren't playing many hands in early position either. Here's my UTG strategy which I'm sure isn't perfect.
Raise: AA - 99 (88-77 sometimes)
AKs - ATs (A9s sometimes)
AKo - AJo
KQo, KQs - KJs
Limp: A2s - A9s
22 - 88
QJs - QTs (Q9s sometimes)
KTs, JTs
Sometimes T9s
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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IMHO, it REALLY depends on the table. For the UTG limp with multi-way hands to work you either need to limp enough hands to make TAgg think twice about isolating (ala Abduls weird balancing with limp/re-raises) or a few horrible players who will limp in trash behind you.
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lonnie
Sorry, I completely misread the post. Now that I think I read it correctly, it looks like you are recommending to limp a bunch of junk hands UTG. What stakes is this play referring to? What kind of flop % are you looking for to do this? Quite frankly this looks like a good way to get slaughtered.
I will say though, that when there are early limpers, there tends to be a lot more limping behind, and a general reluctance to raise behind except with the strongest of hands. I guess I would have to try this UTG limp-style before I could really comment much further on it.
Quote:
You aren't playing many hands in early position either. Here's my UTG strategy which I'm sure isn't perfect.
Raise: AA - 99 (88-77 sometimes)
AKs - ATs (A9s sometimes)
AKo - AJo
KQo, KQs - KJs
Limp: A2s - A9s
22 - 88
QJs - QTs (Q9s sometimes)
KTs, JTs
Sometimes T9s
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KTs, QJs - QTs and JTs aren't junk, they are +EV hands that play awesome in multiway pots. Even if it does get raised preflop these are still +EV if the pot is multiway enough. In fact these are even listed in the 'Tight Games' chart in SSH and that is a pretty ABC chart designed to be like training wheels.
The odds of flopping a set are 7.5-1 so even if it is raised behind you after limping 22-88 the flop doesn't have to be seen several handed to show a profit. A few more players is all that's needed, also these pairs sometimes win unimproved if you get aggressive in the right spots.
T9s and Q9s are fairly rare limps, I'm not recommending these for the average table.
A2s-A9s I think is what has caused the confusion, however preflop they are similar to pairs. You want the pot multiway but can survive a raise aslong as enough players come along. In the 'Tight Games' SSH chart A2s is a limp in MP and for the loose chart a limp UTG. These are hands that get payed off nicely when you hit, they aren't junk either.
Again table selection is important, if you can't play most of these hands UTG then you're probably not playing at the right tables. This is especially true for 0.5/1 and 1/2 players.
The stakes aren't important the table conditions are. You need to be able to look at a table and decide how to adjust your preflop strategy to best take advantage of it. I don't follow a set of guidelines for preflop, I mix it up and change it to fit the players left behind me.
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