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| euphoricism |
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I dont think my hand could POSSIBLY be more obvious. Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) Preflop: Hero is Button with J  , Q. UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB raises, UTG calls, Hero calls. Flop: (6.40 SB) K  , 5, 8 (3 players)BB bets, UTG raises, Hero calls, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls. Turn: (7.70 BB) 7 (3 players)BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls. River: (13.70 BB) Q (3 players)BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls. Final Pot: 17.70 BB Results in white below: UTG has Qd Ks (two pair, kings and queens). Hero has Jh Qh (flush, queen high). Outcome: Hero wins 17.70 BB. |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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| Harry |
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| Hmmmmm, limping UTG with KQ? | |||
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PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!
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| euphoricism |
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| Yeah. He's really bad. | |||
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| thenonsequitur |
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| Harry |
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| It's comforting knowing players like this exist even at 5/10. | |||
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PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!
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| euphoricism |
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Quote:
Edit: From the button, its *probably* raisable. If I was in HJ, I'd definitely limp behind. |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| euphoricism |
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Quote:
In any case, a side-effect is that the variance in the game seems to be increasing as well. I haven't had a "normal" + or - 20 bet day in several weeks. Theyre all + or - 40 to 50 bet days. Thankfully slightly more +'s than -'s :] Could also be entirely coincidental, or a factor of my play. 10/20 players, though, are absolutely breathtakingly awful, and there is simply no debating that 
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| pokerfanatic |
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you played this hand like shit preflop... even with the UTG limper this is an auto raise for me Preflop... when you raise PF the hand plays totaly diffrent i don't see you having to call 2sb on the flop and then having it 3 bet, i think that you could get away with one bet on the flop on your draw... (i guess this way pot is larger but it also adds a ton of varance)... turn is a pretty simple play and raise IMO... river is another raise i would expect to see KQ out of UTG... which his play isn't all that bad actully (i raise PF though)... he raised when he had TP on the flop giving you the worst odds he could at 4.5:1 probably 8.5:1 at least if you hit... therfor unfortantly for him a FD that folds is making a huge mistake... so i would have called a lot of hands for 2 bets there... he slowed down when he got 3 bet by BB which isn't bad because if you called 2 before you are going to call 2 again and he might be behind anyways... i think he called the turn figuring and hoping you didn't hit the flush, and he might have some equity to hit 2pair... when bb calls your raise he is getting 13:1 on his money so i call even if i think that i have at least 3 clean outs... when he hits the river the donk is not that bad of a play in reality, you could easily have AKo with the Ace or K of hearts (it plays the same way with some taggs as a made hand there)... when you raise he probably thinks he is beat but figuring he has 17:1 he only has to win like 8% there to make the call profitable... so for you to say "From the "my opponents suck at poker" department" is just bad thinking... his only mistake i nthe hand was not raising PF IMO, his post flop play hell i run the same line at times... |
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| euphoricism |
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His mistake is not having any concept of 2nd level thinking. You can try to justify his play, but its laughable at best, pathetic at worst. You think he was thinking x,y,z. I think he was thinking "Dude, I totally have two pair!" |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| midas06 |
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| obv metagame/ game theory. He was about 6 levels above your level of thinking. | |||
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| euphoricism |
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His "only" mistakes were: A) Not raising preflop -- wouldn't have changed the outcome of the hand. I still would have cold-called. B) Bet/calling TTP on the river against a guy who limped behind preflop, called two cold on the flop, and woke up with a raise on the turn when the flush completed. Theres only four possible places to make mistakes on a poker hand: Preflop, on the flop, on the turn, and on the river. He "only" made a mistake on half of them. Why are you trying to justify his play? |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| euphoricism |
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| Midas wins. | |||
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| pokerfanatic |
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Quote:
math doesn't have a mind it;s only numbers... |
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| Miffed22001 |
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limping KQ utg lololololol |
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| pokerfanatic |
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| Miffed22001 |
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| elipsesjeff |
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Whats the big deal with everyone? Raising KQo is very standard for us but a person limping KQo isn't "omg he's horrible." It goes along the lines of coldcalling with like JTo or something, you see it so much you just get used to it. Yeah, I would raise it but not too long ago I saw someone post something about limping UTG with Ax and Axs, KQo isnt that much worse from that. |
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 Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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| wufwugy |
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| what's so bad about limping UTG with KQo? | |||
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| euphoricism |
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Everything. Go read SSH. |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| pokerfanatic |
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Quote:
Anyways what my friend meant to say is it is a -EV proposition and is explain why it is this way in SSH... i take that back, out of folding, calling or raising... EV lines up in just that order... it's not exactly -EV but compared to be best play it is... |
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| Fnord |
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| I make worse plays than limping KQo UTG short handed every day I play. | |||
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| elipsesjeff |
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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| Rondavu |
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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| Fnord |
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Quote:
Almost all online games of reasonable stakes are too aggressive to limp. |
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| jmontis |
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| I still dabble in limit from time to time simply because when I'm in a game of loose passives, or even dumb loose aggressives, I can really exploit them. | |||
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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| wufwugy |
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im quite new to Hold Em and have been trying different strategies, a current one of which is limping more often than raising. i rationalize this with a few reasons: 1. im not regularly finding really juicy games so when i raise with a hand i want to play i often just get the blinds or heads up against a blind or two. this doesn't strike me as being optimally profitable since part of the money i make is from playing against multiple players. i find it very irritating when i steal the blinds with AA; so i've decided to limp/reraise with it. i also find it irritating when i feel like i could have made more money had i not raised preflop because then there'd probably be more limpers paying me off with worse hands. more opportunity to draw out, too, but i have no clue how much more. 2. im betting that some bad players get better when they're against somebody who raises a lot. this is not good. 3. typically, the amount of hands that opponents can put limpers on are of a greater number they can put raisers on. this this isn't the case if somebody always raises, though, but is that a good thing? like with 76s? i have other reasons that aren't on the top of my head, but all my reasons are speculative anyways. even then, it seems all the people who know what they're talking say raising is often better than limping, but i haven't come across an adequate explanation why that is. |
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| euphoricism |
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Apologies for my previous reply. I was grouchy. First off, here is why limping with a hand like TJs or 76s is bad: You will be raised far more times than you will NOT be raised. Hence you will be in a heads-up pot with no high cards. This is bad. Very bad. And if you need to limp/reraise to get any action with AA, KK, QQ, you're playing at very bad tables and simply need to find better ones. UTG, just about everything should be raise or fold. You don't want to be in heads-up pots with weak suited connectors and you dont want to be in multiway pots with strong heads-up hands. Limping KQo is bad because you lose folding equity. Say you raise preflop, and it gets heads up. The flop is A82. You bet. You're likely to take it right there, and that is a HUGE moneymaker. Just because its a relatively small pot, don't think its worthless because it happens SO often. You also lose a lot of value due to position. Say you limp preflop with KQo and the flop is AK3. You bet, and he raises. Does he have an A? Maybe. Maybe its a weaker King, raising because he doesn't think you would limp with an A in your hand. You don't know. Raising KQo preflop has other issues - namely problems with domination. Say you raise preflop UTG. Who else is most likely to play the pot with you? Weaker Kings generally will fold -- so there goes the people you're ahead of -- and the only other people who will play will tend to have strong cards that almost always dominate yours - namely hands like AK, AQ, AJ which are way ahead of you and will be expensive when you both hit pairs. Even when you do win, you tend to win small pots and miss bets. Its a headache hand. Personally, it depends on the table whether I'll raise it or not. KQsuited is an obvious raise, KQo is a "meh..." and depends just how bad my opponents are, and whether I have solid reads on them. Mostly its a fold, but a raise isnt a huge mistakes. |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| euphoricism |
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| Realistically, most of us say "fold fold fold", but we often raise it. Its a minor mistake at best, and can be mitigated by solid postflop play. | |||
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| koolmoe |
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I'm going to add that whether to raise KQo UTG highly depends on your seat selection. If you have practiced good seat selection, then you have two relatively tight players to your left and loose, passive players to your right. Provided that the opponents to your left don't float you very often, raising has a lot of value, because you will often thin the field and may fold out weaker A's (say, A8o) that your opponents might otherwise choose to play. Raising in this case gives you a great chance to isolate on the loose players to your right, who are in the blinds and liable to call with all sorts of trash including K's and Q's that you dominate. OTOH, if the players to your left cold call preflop very often, than raising will often put you in a bad position. You will be out of position, likely in a multiway pot, and in need of hitting the flop. If you do hit the flop, the pot will be big, and you will have little means of protecting your hand because you were the preflop aggressor and will have difficulty identifying a way to thin the field. You will be faced with leading out into a relatively large pot (maybe 8SB or so after your bet), and almost any hand, including gutshot straight draws, will have odds to continue. If you miss the flop, you will likely have overcards and feel obligated to continue, even though you may be drawing pretty thin. So, if you are in a bad seat, like in the latter case, maybe limping has its advantages, such as keeping the pot small and giving yourself a better chance to thin the field on the flop. But before I limped in that case, I would uncheck Auto-post blinds so that I can leave the table after the hand to find a better seat somewhere else. BTW, I'm pretty tight, and in my last 33000+ hands, I have never folded KQo UTG. I've played about 5200 hands from UTG (6 or 5 handed), gotten KQo 44 times during that stretch, raised them every time, and won about 0.81 BB/hand with this strategy. I think folding them is giving up a lot of value. |
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Poker is freedom
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| euphoricism |
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I have a 95% vpip in the same situation, 23 hands, +.9/hand. Interesting, thought it would be less, but never really bothered to look. |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
|
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| KoRnholio |
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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| According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... | |
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