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move up, get smacked.....again...

  
 
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Chopper
Old 10-14-2009, 07:43 PM     Post subject: move up, get smacked.....again... #1 (permalink)  
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Chopper
most of this could be variance. it is what tilts the FUCK out of me though. i didnt play these any differently than i would a level lower. i am still committed, but this FUGGIN sux!! (so, i take a break to control tilt. i may get back at it tonight, but between now and then i will be on softer tables.)

one...
$0.5/$1 Limit Holdem
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

READ: villain to my immediate left is running tag stats...other player is a rock...

when are we convinced we are beat? or, are we?


Stacks:
UTG (24.8)
UTG+1 (10.95)
MP1 (98.85)
Hero (23.5)
MP3 (14.85)
CO (18.75)
BTN (19.5)
SB (21)
BB (18.05)

Pre-Flop: (1.5 SB, 9 players) Hero is MP2
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, 3 folds, BB 4-bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls

Flop: (13.5 SB, 3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, MP3 raises, BB 3-bets, Hero folds, MP3 4-bets, BB calls

Turn: (11.2 BB, 2 players)
BB checks, MP3 bets, BB calls

River: (13.2 BB, 2 players)
BB checks, MP3 bets, BB calls

Final Pot: 15.2 BB


two..
$0.5/$1 Limit Holdem
10 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

READ: villain is a complete station..

Stacks:
UTG (22.7)
Hero (20.1)
UTG+2 (17.75)
MP1 (27.55)
MP2 (21.8)
MP3 (33.65)
CO (37.55)
BTN (15)
SB (4.1)
BB (23.75)

Pre-Flop: (1.5 SB, 10 players) Hero is UTG+1
1 fold, Hero raises, 6 folds, SB calls, 1 fold

Flop: (5.0 SB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB 4-bets, Hero calls

Turn: (6.5 BB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls

River: (8.5 BB, 2 players)
SB raises, Hero calls

Final Pot: 8.7 BB
SB shows a straight, Ace to Five

Hero shows a pair of Queens


SB wins 8.3 BB ( won +4.2 BB )

Hero lost -4.1 BB

three..
$0.5/$1 Limit Holdem
10 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

READ: UTG2 is currently running 7/7/2. KK jumps into my mind on the turn, but AK could be there, too. bad line because i should have raised the turn, too, but i dont play it differently against such a tight villain at any level.....my hand reading handicaps me here.

Stacks:
UTG (32.55)
UTG+1 (21.8)
UTG+2 (33.65)
MP1 (37.55)
MP2 (15)
MP3 (5.3)
CO (22.75)
BTN (20.9)
Hero (15.5)
BB (17.75)

Pre-Flop: (1.5 SB, 10 players) Hero is SB
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB checks

Flop: (4.0 SB, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG+2 raises, CO calls, Hero calls, BB 3-bets, UTG+2 4-bets, CO folds, Hero calls, BB calls

Turn: (9.0 BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls, BB calls

River: (12.0 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+2 4-bets, Hero calls

Final Pot: 21.0 BB
UTG+2 shows three of a kind, Aces

Hero shows


UTG+2 wins 20.5 BB ( won +13.0 BB )

BB lost -4.5 BB
CO lost -1.5 BB
Hero lost -7.5 BB


four...
$0.5/$1 Limit Holdem
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

READ: villain 13/7/1.3 over 110 hands...

Stacks:
UTG (29.75)
UTG+1 (16.2)
Hero (21.85)
MP2 (17)
MP3 (13.3)
CO (23.5)
BTN (28.2)
SB (30.1)
BB (15.25)

Pre-Flop: (1.5 SB, 9 players) Hero is MP1
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 6 folds, UTG+1 calls

Flop: (5.5 SB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls

Turn: (3.8 BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls

River: (7.8 BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls

Final Pot: 9.8 BB
Hero shows

UTG+1 shows a straight, Eight to Queen


UTG+1 wins 9.3 BB ( won +4.8 BB )

Hero lost -4.5 BB
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Chopper
Old 10-14-2009, 07:43 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Chopper
basically, in the third hand, i thought "KK" on the flop. told myself AK could also be there. then, told myself, "his stats are so tight." on the turn, i told myself, "control the pot." then, on river told myself, "dude, dont be a nit. if it's there, it's there, AK will cap here...get value."

oops.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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LawDude
Old 10-14-2009, 07:58 PM #3 (permalink)  
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LawDude
I don't like hand 1. I am VERY reticent to read too much into flop aggression when I have an overpair. People will put multiple bets in with top pair, flush and straight draws, overcards (especially AK and AQ) smaller pocket pairs, etc. I will give these hands up in obvious turn and river scenarios when I know I am beat. But aggression on the flop, where the bets are cheaper, is not as meaningful (nor is it as costly). And once you got past the flop, you were likely going to get to call this thing down to the river pretty cheaply. I think you overthought this one.

Hand 2 is a cooler. You flopped TPGK, you were aggressive, and the villain drew out on you with a runner-runner straight. Are you telling me you never ran into that one at .25/.50? Heck, I ran into it at $30/$60 at Hollywood Park!

Hand 3 is also a cooler. I would have raised the turn, but I have no illusions that I am getting pocket aces to fold by doing so. If they hit a 2 outer, so be it.

Hand 4, the only thing you might consider is a fold on the river, as at that point there isn't much left you can beat. But that's up to you and is back to our crying calls discussion.

If I were you, I'd keep playing 50/1 as long as you are rolled for it.
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Chopper
Old 10-14-2009, 08:17 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
If I were you, I'd keep playing 50/1 as long as you are rolled for it.
i will. but, i may play a couple fewer while i concentrate a little more on taking notes. i see a couple things....always have here...

limping is not tolerated nearly as often. that cuts out a significant part of MY play. and, they tend to play a little more straightforward. i possibly should respect the raises a little more...at least until i have enough hands to sort of trust certain spots.

early on, i tend to 3bet a raise rather lightly to see how they react. it has never been received well at 50/1. it gets capped more often.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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LawDude
Old 10-14-2009, 08:23 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
If I were you, I'd keep playing 50/1 as long as you are rolled for it.
i will. but, i may play a couple fewer while i concentrate a little more on taking notes. i see a couple things....always have here...

limping is not tolerated nearly as often. that cuts out a significant part of MY play. and, they tend to play a little more straightforward. i possibly should respect the raises a little more...at least until i have enough hands to sort of trust certain spots.

early on, i tend to 3bet a raise rather lightly to see how they react. it has never been received well at 50/1. it gets capped more often.
It's funny, because I notice that much more at 1/2 online than at 50/1. But then, my 3-betting range is probably narrower than yours, so maybe they just don't have as many opportunities to do it to me.

As for limping, I will limp my butt off in live games unless and until my opponents prove that they are real poker players. But I actually don't open-limp much even at the lowest levels online. Rather, I want some assurance that I am going to get the multi-way pot that I am seeking, either from the stats of the players behind me, what I have personally observed at the table, or (the best scenario) a couple of limpers in front of me. Indeed, if I know I am going to get a multi-way pot, I don't even mind cold-calling raises.
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Chopper
Old 10-14-2009, 08:31 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LawDude
I don't like hand 1. I am VERY reticent to read too much into flop aggression when I have an overpair. People will put multiple bets in with top pair, flush and straight draws, overcards (especially AK and AQ) smaller pocket pairs, etc. I will give these hands up in obvious turn and river scenarios when I know I am beat. But aggression on the flop, where the bets are cheaper, is not as meaningful (nor is it as costly). And once you got past the flop, you were likely going to get to call this thing down to the river pretty cheaply. I think you overthought this one.

Hand 2 is a cooler. You flopped TPGK, you were aggressive, and the villain drew out on you with a runner-runner straight. Are you telling me you never ran into that one at .25/.50? Heck, I ran into it at $30/$60 at Hollywood Park!

Hand 3 is also a cooler. I would have raised the turn, but I have no illusions that I am getting pocket aces to fold by doing so. If they hit a 2 outer, so be it.

Hand 4, the only thing you might consider is a fold on the river, as at that point there isn't much left you can beat. But that's up to you and is back to our crying calls discussion.

If I were you, I'd keep playing 50/1 as long as you are rolled for it.
hand one was actually correctly played. and, not being "results ortiented," how often are we up against KK or AA, not both? cold 3bet and then cold cap! one of these is KK/AA. on the flop, AKs has the edge on us, too! QQ is meat here, imo. forget the fact it capped again!!!!! i will peel one bet, but not 2 more. QQ is not looking very good here anymore, imo.

two...sure, i run into it there, too. bad beats, i can take in stride. just not two or three really, really bad ones. this is only a smattering of what i took in the ass today. you know me, though, i am not afraid to leave when i feel tilt setting in. i think its actually a strength of mine. and, i will be really prone to it AND watching for it as i try and get used to playing 50/1 as my default.

three...i dont mind AA calling me there. for some reason, i was only thinking KK/AK. i knew there was more involved, but i just wasnt accounting for it very well. i know its another beat, but like i said, two or three so quickly start to get to me.

four...i mostly called for information. at 25/50, i have notes/stats and can let it go if need be. here, i cant, yet. i need to pay a couple of these off here to see how frequently it can be a bluff. remember, i only need to catch a bluff here 1 in 9 times. i think i will. so, even if wrong, the approach in this spot is a rather small mistake. but, against the right players, i can fold this without a second thought.

i need to see some big pots, though, with donkeys involved. otherwise, i will be very nitty for awhile. and, the flop %'s in the lobby are not looking promising. the average pots seem to have increased a little. but, that is a factor of aggression, not spew, as a whole. tighter players getting more value = less passive fish.

still......the beats suck when they are river catches. i didnt post the beats for sympathy. i posted them to show you guys what seems to happen the very second i "decide" to move up. i just need to force myself to stick around long enough to catch the heater i am due instead of dropping back down and catching it there.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Chopper
Old 10-14-2009, 08:39 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Indeed, if I know I am going to get a multi-way pot, I don't even mind cold-calling raises.

one adjustment i need to make as i move up. that would help keep my range open a little more than just refusing to play raised pots without great cards.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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KoRnholio
Old 10-14-2009, 09:54 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 1. Tough fold, but I think I like it. When a rock/passive and a tag 3bet and cap perflop, then go bonkers on a rag board, you're looking at a 2 outer with your QQ most of the time.

2. I pay off the river here, pot is just too big to fold IMO

3. I'd raise the turn, BB has to have something to 3bet that flop, probably Kx that he won't fold, maybe UTG+2 even 3bets AK/AA so we can cap.

4. When playing my A-game I can almost fold that turn. We're up against 2pr+ here almost always, but have some outs. Without the gutshot straight draw, I could find a fold. But if I don't have a read on the guy, I will usually look up a hand like this the first time just to confirm that he isn't some Ax tard overplaying his top pair.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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daven
Old 10-18-2009, 06:56 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 ******* standard caveat re struggles with limit pot odd scenarios *********

hand 1 - looks good to me. Someone has you beat most of the time here.
hand 2 - again, nh. Shame about the river 7-outer.
hand 3 - Raise turn. I don't like the fear-with-middle-set. Flop is cool. I'm not sure why KK jumps to mind from an open limper? turn you should get some aggro. And if you're scared to raise on the turn, why does the river make it less scary?
hand 4 - is fine until the river i think, but then you beat nothing, so isn't folding better? Even A6 got there.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 10-19-2009, 02:36 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: Why just the initial call on the flop? We either force MP3 out with a raise or at least gain more information on how much he likes his hand. You'd call one more small bet on the flop, right? You might as well get that extra bet in aggressively instead of passively. As played, good fold but tough...very opp dependent.

Hand 2: I like it. That crap happens against stations but you can usually more than make up for it with vbs in other hands.

Hand 3: Were you getting greedy with the slowplay here or something? I ask because that river line and that turn line don't really go together well. Lead turn. I see some proposing a c/r...not sure why that seems attractive. Seems too strong and will shut down betting on this and the river if given a blank. Lead out and let the bloat happen naturally. On the turn, I'm not too worried with the 3rd nuts (given the 2nd nuts is a very unlikely holding) but the A is a horrible river card against two opps as it doubles the holdings that beat you. Now I get worried...check and see what your opps do. Try to see a showdown cheaply.

Hand 4: Sucks*

* = in a fate sense, not talking about your actions. Not sure what that player is doing holding that there but we all peel light occasionally, I guess. Call turn. You have outs. Fold river. Against a real aggro opp, I might be able to call but against this guy, the pot just isn't quite big enough.
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BennyLaRue
Old 10-19-2009, 02:41 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
hand one was actually correctly played. and, not being "results ortiented," how often are we up against KK or AA, not both? cold 3bet and then cold cap! one of these is KK/AA. on the flop, AKs has the edge on us, too! QQ is meat here, imo. forget the fact it capped again!!!!! i will peel one bet, but not 2 more. QQ is not looking very good here anymore, imo.
If you're that certain, don't even call the initial bet then when you're in between multiple opps. Either get it in strong or get out...your draw is not good enough to excuse calling oop.
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Chopper
Old 10-19-2009, 04:54 PM #12 (permalink)  
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benny,

yes i got greedy on hand 3 and changed my mind with the c/r on the turn to keep BB in the pot, then unleash the bomb on the river. and, of course, i screwed myself. but, AK is in there, too, so i was "ok" with the overplay being that i am not going to narrow him down to AA and just call a raise. oh well.

however, i wasnt sure i was beat in hand one until the flop action got past me. i was suspecting something as the flop came out, and thought, "this was a great flop for me." i dont remember why i called...could be that i had a passive behind me that would raise KK/AA, but not AK or other pf capping hands and it would help me define how far behind i was...if i was. if he just calls, i probably get far more aggressive on later streets. however, since it was raised and reraised, i felt sandwiched between "best hand and best draw" and saw fit to get out since i would be forced to overplay my hand at that point and spades, kings, and aces pretty much trash my hand in what would soon become too big a pot to fold. at least i felt i could get out now...fairly certain i would see KK or AA in there. and, i saw both.

hand one is, imo, a SSHE hand. the type you would play aggressively in other, tougher games, but in these abc passive games you can avoid serious trouble by not getting too deep in the hand w/o a decent chance of improving. kind of like TPMK on an 8hi flop and oop in a 4 handed pot.....only even more expensive.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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LawDude
Old 10-19-2009, 07:08 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I don't think this is covered in SSHE, but if I were to generate a simple aphorism for small stakes games, it would be that bluffs and semi-bluffs and pot bloating for OK hands happens on the flop, and monsters come out on the turn. The reality is, if I have QQ and it is an overpair to the board, I am not that worried about flop aggression. People raise their draws on the flop, they raise their lower overpairs on the flop, they raise top pair on the flop, they raise AK on the flop, they raise hands that I have lots of outs against (such as 2 pair) on the flop, etc.

An overpair to the board is a great hand that plays well in many situations. I generally want to see some aggression when the bets get more expensive on the turn before I decide to dump it. And even then, if I can call it down cheaply and don't have a good read that I am beat, I often will.
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Chopper
Old 10-19-2009, 08:06 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
The reality is, if I have QQ and it is an overpair to the board, I am not that worried about flop aggression. People raise their draws on the flop, they raise their lower overpairs on the flop, they raise top pair on the flop, they raise AK on the flop, they raise hands that I have lots of outs against (such as 2 pair) on the flop, etc.
yes. but, a VERY small portion of that range cold 3bets pre and cold caps pre after 2 and 3 players are already coming along for a flop most likely. MP3 and BB wanted this HU even though others were interested. MP3 is wider than BB here usually. however, the combined strength of these moves is pretty bad for QQ, or at the very least should send up some red flags to watch for the flop.

i will play the flop like this with AKs, and will cold cap pre with it, too. but, both players dont have AKs here, and i doubt QJs and/or 99 will fire like crazy at this......let alone cap pre. they arent likely to be in this pot.

the ranges, especially if the read is "passive," is extremely narrow here, and it has QQ crushed. time to run when its two cold on the flop and will likely cap again.

i think that was all the "plan" we needed to know after we call the flop and get see a raise and RR again....out of the same two players that did this pre flop.

i dont care what stakes we are playing, QQ is looking pretty bad and only has 2 outs to improve, one of which gives AKs his nuts.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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LawDude
Old 10-19-2009, 08:20 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Well, the logic of your position then says that you should fold to even ONE bet on the flop, right? Because you are basically calling pre-flop to setmine and you didn't get your set, and your assumption is that at least one of these guys had AA or KK.

And yet I doubt you would play it that way.
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Chopper
Old 10-19-2009, 08:53 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LawDude
Well, the logic of your position then says that you should fold to even ONE bet on the flop, right? Because you are basically calling pre-flop to setmine and you didn't get your set, and your assumption is that at least one of these guys had AA or KK.

And yet I doubt you would play it that way.
agreed, but i wasnt quite sure until the raise and RR on the flop. at that point, i couldnt even force myself to pay 3bets total to see the turn card. i felt that was enough evidence that either KK or AA was definitely in the pot.....possibly both. i didnt think i would see both, but i did.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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LawDude
Old 10-19-2009, 10:16 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawDude
Well, the logic of your position then says that you should fold to even ONE bet on the flop, right? Because you are basically calling pre-flop to setmine and you didn't get your set, and your assumption is that at least one of these guys had AA or KK.

And yet I doubt you would play it that way.
agreed, but i wasnt quite sure until the raise and RR on the flop. at that point, i couldnt even force myself to pay 3bets total to see the turn card. i felt that was enough evidence that either KK or AA was definitely in the pot.....possibly both. i didnt think i would see both, but i did.
But that's what I disagree with you about. I don't think the flop action actually adds any new information, because players who bet their hands very aggressively pre-flop tend to continue with their aggression post-flop. As I said, people raise with all sorts of stuff on the flop, and for that reason flop aggression means very little.

I think you need a clearer picture of what hands you put these guys on pre-flop, and then when the flop hits, you basically have to follow that (unless something really weird happens like it is checked around). Based on that, folding this hand might have been perfectly fine, but it means you probably need to fold some other hands that you might not want to fold. On the flip side, you can take the position that you are going to see these types of hands at least out to the turn because flop aggression means so little. That, essentially, is what I tend to do unless the people re-raising me are so tight that I can basically put them on AA-KK with absolute confidence.
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Chopper
Old 10-19-2009, 11:38 PM #18 (permalink)  
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i think we need to agree to disagree here. no problems in that.

while i agree that flop aggression means less, i still think it means something. look at my "read" again. one player is a TAG and the other is a ROCK. MP3 was the TAG. so, BB was the ROCK. when does a ROCK cap cold pre and cap a flop w/ A6, 88, or AKs? he doesnt.

he led out, which in and of itself doesn't tell us much...even by his standards imo. and, i am getting 14.5:1 on a single call with a hand that is likely good. i decide not to raise (maybe foolishly) because MP3 had shown aggression and i didnt want him to 3bet. i would rather him just raise and i can call that with better than 14.5:1 (if you look at it that way, which may also be foolish since it would really be about 8:1) and peel a loose flop with possible equity. however, it doesnt work out that way. it gets raised and the ROCK 3bets! now, i am sold on the overpair to my QQ and bail.

i cant drop the flop based on my preflop suspicions. but, i dont need a lot of convincing on the flop.....based on WHO is in the pot. if BB is a LAG, i dont care and i pay off most likely, or need even more convincing. however, not against a ROCK in a multiway pot when the definition of ROCKS tells us that they dont get in big confrontations w/o the nuts...or close to it. and, this is a situation that shows every sign of getting rather expensive to find out. i conclude my hand is not strong enough to find out.

i dont want to see this to a flop because by then, my attitude will be more of crying calls if i can get it cheap. and that, imo, is equally stupid if you have that strong a feeling you are well behind with little hope to catch up.

i dont make a habit of "laydowns" like this. but, here i still think it was correct. i dont see how we can fold the flop after BB leads out, but i can see how we do so after MP3 raises and BB tells us he wants to keep swinging.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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