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moiraine57
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06-13-2005, 03:41 PM
Post subject: More Comfortable with Limit?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 112
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Hey all, just wondered if you have had the same experience or this is beginner's luck.
I avoided limit like the plague...I heard people saying too many sucked out on them, it was full of calling stations, etc.
But I thought I would take the plunge because I am going to test the waters pretty soon in a B&M.
I have only played 2 sessions, but I found it more enjoyable than NL for the most part. For example, I just concluded a quick 45 min session. My last hand, I was up 50% of my buy-in. Well, I get dealt pocket Qs...and they were up against pocket Ks. In a NL game, that would sink me, and I would leave with a loss. In the limit, his play allowed me to sense he might have me beat, slow-down, re-evaluate, and check call. And I still left with a winning session.
My previous problem at NL, is that I experienced wide variance. It was hard to get a read on any of the players because they varied wildly from crack whores to totally rock solid.
So sometimes I would end up laying down my TPTK to an all-in only to see nimrod turn over TPWK. Or I would call saying, "He couldn't have the 7-10 for the straight, he wouldn't have called a pre-flop raise with that gar---"Dammit!" And I would lose my entire buy-in.
Limit seems agressive, but controlled. It has a different feel. I like it thus far. I might have to play a few more and see how I feel about it then.
I wonder how many people come to limit from no-limit? It seems mostly to be the other way around.
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gutshot
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
Posts: 608
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Pretty much sums up my experiences. I played NL ring and SNGs for about 6 or 7 months when I first started playing online. I slowly leaked money away and finally made the switch in November. I feel alot more confident in a LHE game and have made alot more money playing Limit. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.
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-jay
"i think the biggest leak in my game is using 2nd level thinking against players who can't think on the first level." -Renton
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Strung
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 209
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I started out in limit and am pretty comfortable in it and have been playing NL lately. I have been winning in both but they are completely different animals. NL is more about reads but in the lower limits it's more about camping for sets/starights/flushes. I think limit is a game of TPTK where the same hand in NL rarely holds up.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gutshot
Pretty much sums up my experiences. I played NL ring and SNGs for about 6 or 7 months when I first started playing online. I slowly leaked money away and finally made the switch in November. I feel alot more confident in a LHE game and have made alot more money playing Limit. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.
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same here, i started playing $2-4 at party, and it's just amazing.
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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storm75m
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 6MAX-NL - Houston
Posts: 401
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I am an exclusive NL player, and I would like to try out some limit as well... It just seems so much more controlled and steady, like there is almost always a clear cut decision to be made... (maybe not so clear cut in some cases...) What would be a good first book to try out that will give me a good foundation for playing limit?
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Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.
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gutshot
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
Posts: 608
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by storm75m
I am an exclusive NL player, and I would like to try out some limit as well... It just seems so much more controlled and steady, like there is almost always a clear cut decision to be made... (maybe not so clear cut in some cases...) What would be a good first book to try out that will give me a good foundation for playing limit?
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Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller is generally regarded as the LHE bible for small stakes games. However, misapplying the concepts can result in chip spewing.
I read Winning Low Limit Holdem by Lee Jones first and played that way for my first month of LHE play and then picked up SSH and went from there.
Alot of people say WLLH is weak tight play and it is to some extent, but it will build a solid foundation for more advanced and aggressive play down the line.
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-jay
"i think the biggest leak in my game is using 2nd level thinking against players who can't think on the first level." -Renton
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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seconded. I started with Lee Jones' winning low limit hold em.
Actually, I admit, I only skimmed it. probably 95% of my learning has been from this forum.
I recently picked up SSH, but again, only skimmed that. I did do the "excersizes" at the end, and nailed em all, so I guess I'm OK ;]
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gutshot
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
Posts: 608
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There is a new n00b level book written by Ed Miller called Getting Started in Holdem. I haven't read it, but some folks on 2+2 say it dumbs down some of the concepts from SSH a little bit so the transition from WLLH to SSH isn't as drastic a change with "unlearning" some previous concepts. Might be worth a look.
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-jay
"i think the biggest leak in my game is using 2nd level thinking against players who can't think on the first level." -Renton
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kizzik
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 23
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I've only been playing online for about three months.
I only play small stakes limit. I started playing $0.25/$0.50 full table limit on UltimateBet, built my bankroll up to $350, then lost virtually all of it on a one week slump. I now play $1/$2 and $2/$4 six-max limit on InterPoker.
The two books that I read on a daily basis:
Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Jones
Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth
Of all the books that I have read (about a dozen) these two are the best on the topic of playing low limit hold'em.
I have the two Hold'em Excellence books by Krieger and Theory of Poker by Sklansky, but I think they are going to be more useful to me after a couple more months of practise.
My next purchase will probably be Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players.
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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if you are getting into limit, do not skim SSH. read it. read it again. read it one more time. Read it again etc.
I like loose limit games with lots of people limping in the pot. You are able to play alot more hands with position. If your game is very passive you can do a lot of limping with hands that play well in multi way pots and see some flops for cheap.
With limit there is almost always a 'better' decision. Knowing the best decision to make takes experience. Because of this, limit can become a grind. Few people have the patience to grind it out over and over again hand after hand, day after day. If you start out playing lower limit games, you will see the lack of patience many people have. A lot of people know they should play tight, but don't have the patience to wait for the cards. This is a huge part in why low limit online games can be quite profitable.
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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i love limit but i've been on such a huge slump playing lately at the 2/4 tables, i switched up to 25NL for a change and i completely destroyed the game, moved up to 50NL and im destroying that one as well.
im thinking when im bankrolled again for 2/4 i'll come back and try a few sessions... NL is a good vacation from limit tho.
i wouldnt say im more comfortable with limit, but i enjoy it better when im winning, than when im winning in NL
i started with lou kriegers beginners book as well as lee jones's beginners book, started off very tight, but profitable .. got sick of the suck outs, went to NL for a lil while, then moved back to limit after i read SSH by miller/malmouth/sklansky and my game couldnt be stopped.. things i learned in limit helped out my NL game tremendously, and things i've learned in NL helped out my limit game .. i think its great to know both well.
SSH i have read at least 8 or 9 times, i have the HPFAP but yet to read it, im thinking i need to move up from the 2/4 level before this book will help.
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Element187
SSH i have read at least 8 or 9 times, i have the HPFAP but yet to read it, im thinking i need to move up from the 2/4 level before this book will help.
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curious, because I'll probably be trying 3-6 soon, I just ordered SHH (lol)
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmontis
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Element187
SSH i have read at least 8 or 9 times, i have the HPFAP but yet to read it, im thinking i need to move up from the 2/4 level before this book will help.
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curious, because I'll probably be trying 3-6 soon, I just ordered SHH (lol) |
SSH is awesome for the 2/4 level (party poker), but the strategies i learned from SSH werent applying to 3/6 everytime i sat down.
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Strung
I think limit is a game of TPTK where the same hand in NL rarely holds up.
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i could not disagree more. limit is where TPTK gets sucked out on the turn and river all the time, because it doesn't cost much to chase.
NL is where you can defend your TPTK on the flop with a good pot sized bet or an all in. those who chase get severely punished if they don't have the odds.
as for variance, limit prevents you from losing your whole stack in one hand, but if you're not careful, you can easily lose it over the course of a couple hours. it's so "cheap" to call one more bet to see that river, but all those multitudes of calls add up much faster than they do in NL, where it's easier to fold against a big raise. and even if you play by the book (SSH), you WILL lose your stack every once in a while on missed draws that you (correctly) pumped pre and post flop. the swings can be quite large and extended and just as emotionally devastating as in NL.
ChezJ
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suryodaya
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 8
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I started out playing a mixture of NL and limit, both for pretty small stakes, and I found that I was preferring NL, even though the variance was high. However, when I had played enough hands to build up some meaningful stats I had a surprise - limit was by far the more profitable bet structure for me. I'm sure this is because I'm newish to Holdem and NL requires more skill (whereas limit has those "training wheels"), but I decided to stop playing NL for the moment and focus on limit, and I haven't regretted it for a moment - it's a little more "boring" in the sense that you have to be very disciplined and methodical and keep playing your hands in the "correct" way even if it has lost you the pot for the last 3 times in a row. I found that NL allowed me to be more "intuitive" with my betting but that was probably a bad thing as I was both winning and losing big, and overall probably just about breaking even. I think I'd like to play NL but I want to become comfortable at limit first before I remove the training wheels and try again at NL.
I have Small Stakes Hold'em and it's been incredibly useful to me. Probably solely responsible for my being able to (fairly) consistently beat the small stakes tables.
One really interesting (to me) point made in SSH is that it is not always correct to fold even when you are most likely beaten. If you are going to lose a showdown 80% of the time, but the 20% of times you'll win it make you enough money, then it makes it correct to call down bets on the river for certain hands. I used to almost always fold on the river with, for example, an unimproved pocket pair when overcards had flopped and someone was betting consistently. However I've stopped folding those hands quite so much - I try to use my judgement about it - if I feel that I have even a 10% chance of winning and the pots are reasonably sizable then I'll call, and I've noticed that this has won me quite a few small to medium pots where opponents were bluffing or betting on middle pair, more than enough to compensate for the lost bets when I am beaten by the obvious hand...but you could never apply this kind of logic in NL, I presume.
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Strung
I think limit is a game of TPTK where the same hand in NL rarely holds up.
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i could not disagree more. limit is where TPTK gets sucked out on the turn and river all the time, because it doesn't cost much to chase.
NL is where you can defend your TPTK on the flop with a good pot sized bet or an all in. those who chase get severely punished if they don't have the odds.
as for variance, limit prevents you from losing your whole stack in one hand, but if you're not careful, you can easily lose it over the course of a couple hours. it's so "cheap" to call one more bet to see that river, but all those multitudes of calls add up much faster than they do in NL, where it's easier to fold against a big raise. and even if you play by the book (SSH), you WILL lose your stack every once in a while on missed draws that you (correctly) pumped pre and post flop. the swings can be quite large and extended and just as emotionally devastating as in NL.
ChezJ |
Chez seems to take the words out of my mouth a lot of times... but he is 100% accurate IMO, I think the swing in limit can get as nasty as NL, and limit you loose a lot slower so it does a toll on you mentally as well, in NL you might loose the amount in one hand where it takes like 10 hands to get same results at limit, so I think in NL you have an initial shock like shit I went broke... but in limit it's a slow death, I’m not sure what worse... 
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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bencathers
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Manhattan & Boston
Posts: 480
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I enjoy limit because of the control it affords me... if I have TPTK on a rainbow board, and the person next to me is an aggro maniac.. and its heads up, I know its only going to cost me X amount of dollars to check/call.. and help me defend my hand... yeah, you may be a little bit scared, but its nice knowing its going to cost X to chase, or X to defend a hand I have..
But also, there are some amazing suckouts (people getting two pair on the river is painful). But there's also a lot of chasing. Hitting a set or TPTK on a flush draw is often profitable, as you will bet and ppl will call chasing.. and you can tell exactly by their betting if they hit the flush if it comes.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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I used to play exclusively NL .25/.50 and .50/1 on stars, but I now mostly play 2/4 limit on party/stars because I feel I do better at limit than NL. I feel as if I'm a decent player but I am still prone to making mistakes and they don't cost as much in limit
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Strung
I think limit is a game of TPTK where the same hand in NL rarely holds up.
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i could not disagree more. limit is where TPTK gets sucked out on the turn and river all the time, because it doesn't cost much to chase. |
On the other hand, hands like AK will often have odds to see more than just the flop. Against aggressive players in NL, this can be a difficult hand to play if it is obvious that you missed the flop. It is also easier to show down AK unimproved in limit.
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Poker is freedom
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by storm75m
I am an exclusive NL player, and I would like to try out some limit as well... It just seems so much more controlled and steady, like there is almost always a clear cut decision to be made... (maybe not so clear cut in some cases...) What would be a good first book to try out that will give me a good foundation for playing limit?
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The decisions can be equally as hard to make, but the harder a decision is the less it matters in terms of Expected value.
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StarlightCoast
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One Pair
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 15
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by storm75m
What would be a good first book to try out that will give me a good foundation for playing limit?
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Internet Texas Holdem by Matthew Hilger is geared specifically for the limit player
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