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snowboard_31

10-10-2007, 08:23 PM Post subject: Middle Pairs

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2007

Posts: 206

Ive found myself frequently faced with tough decisions regarding middle pairs. I'm completely in the dark on how to play them, in lots of situations. I know it depends on each situation, so ill post several example hand histories. Currently: if im the pfr I will bet the flop (My c-bet % is around 80), if I have position and its checked to me Ill bet it, and if its bet before me with several people to go behind me/someone has already called the bet ill usually dump it.

Is this line too conservative? should I be calling and seeing another card before i make a decision? should i be raising to "find out where im at".
ps- this post is mostly in reference to middle pair ON THE FLOP.

-Villian is 41/14/2 Villian 2(SB) is a normal TAG, play with him frequently
Party Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J

, T

.
2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (2 SB) 5

, J

, K

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, SB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 1 BB
EDIT- in this hand someone posted, the hand history missed it or something, hes the other villian. He checked pre-flop then bet on the flop.

-Villian is 37/0.9/0.9

Party Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Preflop: Hero is SB with

.
2 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB)

(4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2 BB)

(4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP2 folds, CO raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4 BB

-Villian is 48/1/0.5 and villian2 is 40/0/1

Party Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Preflop: Hero is BB with

.
2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB)

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero...

1. Get a seat to their right
2. Steal blinds at will
3. ...
4. Profit
"It should be a crime to not bet if someone has checked to you twice."
-soupie
"If you can pinpoint a player's range, you can own his soul."
-Bond18

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KoRnholio

10-10-2007, 09:10 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

1. Throw in a bet on the flop.
*2. Fine
*3. Bet, there's just one mouse left between you and the cheese. And he probably doesn't have a 10 or PP >55 (since he open limped in the CO)

Edit: for some reason I didn't see hand 1 in there because it was converted differently.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

DrivingDog

10-11-2007, 10:19 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

hand 1: you're just giving the pot away here. Bet out, and if you get raised, usually c/f the turn UI. If called, keep betting regardless of the turn card.

hand 2: fine. too many tards will limp with A4 or similar here and then be afraid to bet the flop with a weak kicker.

hand 3: bet. you'll get calls from overcards. bet the turn because the overcards will usually miss. if you get raised on the flop, usually c/f the turn UI.

In general i will bet out just about any middle pair in an unraised pot with 3 or fewer players oop. If i get raised, the rest of the hand depends on my read and the board.

with four or more players i will check oop and if it gets around the button who bets, i c/r middle pair.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

Hermann the Lombard

10-11-2007, 04:46 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 270

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

with four or more players i will check oop and if it gets around the button who bets, i c/r middle pair.

How about if a middle player bets and the button calls? I guess the answer depends on reads (i.e. is the button a calling station) but I think I would generally avoid the overcall.

snowboard_31

10-11-2007, 10:38 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2007

Posts: 206

This is me screwing around with pokerstove, Im probably doing this all wrong but id like to give it a shot so then i can use it for analysis better in the future. For the third hand:

209,899,641 games 3.500 secs 59,971,326 games/sec

Board: 2c 4h Ts
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 27.926% 27.63% 00.29% 58004193 611648.83 { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 1: 30.203% 29.91% 00.29% 62790942 604305.33 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 41.872% 41.82% 00.05% 87786759 101792.83 { 8c4c }

-This is just inputting my hand versus both opponents ranges based on there VPIP. Is this a good way to go about reviewing hands with pokerstove? or should i be judging my own ranges for villians?

DrivingDog

10-12-2007, 11:43 AM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

Even though it favours your hand, the PStove analysis is somewhat biased against you in this case because it assumes all three players will stay in the hand to the river. But if you bet and fold out some bad draws then your equity will improve dramatically.

On the T42 rainbow flop:

a) your hand is probably best ... 4x, Tx, and 44+ hands make up a minority of your opponents' ranges, and even against two opponents i'd guess you're ahead well more than 50% of the time here;
b) your hand is vulnerable to just about any turn card; and
c) there are really no strong draws possible, so if you are ahead your opponents will have at most 6 outs and insufficient odds to call a flop bet getting 4:1.

Therefore you should bet to protect your hand and/or charge opponents to draw

Of course there's no guarantee you're going to win these hands every time but you simply MUST bet in these situations if you're going to be a winner long-term...

(Btw, the same goes for hand 1, esp. since villian posted out of turn and didn't raise preflop - meaning that essentially he has a random hand, and middle pair decent kicker is miles ahead of two random cards)

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

DrivingDog

10-12-2007, 11:56 AM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

with four or more players i will check oop and if it gets around the button who bets, i c/r middle pair.

How about if a middle player bets and the button calls? I guess the answer depends on reads (i.e. is the button a calling station) but I think I would generally avoid the overcall.

Depends on a lot of things, like size of the pot, opponents' tendencies, texture of board, etc., but yeah folding in a small pot is ok i think. Might call with middle pair and overcard if my opponents are loose.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

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