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Microstakes flopped OESFD was jamming the turn wrong?

  
 
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overflow
Old 05-26-2007, 02:08 PM     Post subject: Microstakes flopped OESFD was jamming the turn wrong? #1 (permalink)  
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Full Tilt 0.25/0.5 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, 8.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 9, 6, J (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) T (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, MP1 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (29.50 BB) 9 (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 32.50 BB
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bigspenda73
Old 05-26-2007, 02:21 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Welcome to microstakes. First of all, please go back and edit the results out of your posts and try not to include them in HH's unless they set up another hand.

Raising the flop is questionable. You have a big draw and you want to build the pot. It might be better to build the pot getting overcallers behind you. We have to ask ourselves, if I raise, then how many times will someone coldcall 2 bets behind me? If you are only going to get 1 bet out of the initial bettor and think the 2 players behind you will fold a majority of the time calling may be a better play to get more bets into the pot. Just something to think about. However, at smaller stakes raising is fine b/c poor players will call 2 bets cold w/o even thinking.

Capping the turn is spew as the turn card just made you draw dirty. Your Queen outs are likely no longer good and your equity is greatly reduced with 1 card left. We probably only have 12 outs now (being generous saying 9 spades and the 3 other 7's). This means we only have about 3.5:1 equity in the pot. Therefore, every bet we get in is no longer making us money but losing us money with only 3 players in the pot. On the river your call is poor even for 30:1 odds. It's obvious MP has AA/KK and is not folding. The small blind should have 78s here every time. I know he didn't, but he should.
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 05-26-2007, 04:37 PM #3 (permalink)  
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flop raise was good. turn is spew.
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-26-2007, 06:53 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 The flop cap is good, still not convinced the raise is the best way to get money out of the two players behind you.

We're never folding out straight/flush draws with this raise at this level. All we're folding out are weak 1 pr hands which we have a ton of equity against.
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 05-26-2007, 08:07 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
still not convinced the raise is the best way to get money out of the two players behind you.
pot odds. they will call.
 
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euphoricism
Old 05-26-2007, 09:43 PM #6 (permalink)  
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preflop pot is bloated, in these situations if theyre calling 1 theyre calling two. Good flop raise. Turn is spew, river is a fold.
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bigspenda73
Old 05-26-2007, 09:54 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
still not convinced the raise is the best way to get money out of the two players behind you.
pot odds. they will call.
@Euph and Hyper

These guys at these levels have no clue what pot odds are. If this was 5/10 then you would be correct.

All they see is a bet then a raise.
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Stagemn
Old 05-29-2007, 05:31 PM #8 (permalink)  
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At FR... I would've

1. Just limped on the button here.

2. I like the raise after showing a PFR. You technically push any with one overcards out of the pot at those odds. But with the pot being so high, you still give even inside straight draws and up the right to call which lessens your chance of winning even if you flop the T high flush or Q/J high straight and find out some one has you beat with a KQ or even worse, Q8 where they made thier straight on the turn? You just gave them every right to play that hand correctly and your's incorrectly. If you hadn't raised and simply called, you would've still given those players with any overcard the right to call.

Let us look as if you simply limped in at Pre-Flop
(A) SB may have limped in?
(B) BB would've checked (obviuosly)
(C) in doing so.. the pot is now 5 SBs
(D) Assuming everyone checks to MP1 who bets, pot is now 6 SBs.
(E) You raise, pot is now 8 SBs and make it 4:1 to call not giving anyone with 2 overs, ISD, 1 over, or trips to call.

Analyzing this hand.. I see mistakes I had made myself before:
1. T8s on the buton is an auto-limp to limpers or fold to any PFR. Maybe raise in only to attempt in stealing the blinds if folded to you. Pre-flop: you played wrong.

2. Flop play is great. You prevented those with a paint-crap kicker on no other draw to call on bad odds or fold.

The comes the Turn - SB bets all of the sudden.... hmm... maybe AT or KQ? he did call the PFR. Then you....

3. RAISE??? WTH are you gonna raise with a mediocre hand here. All you have is a pair of tens with a weak kicker on a OESFD. MP1 betted and called so maybe he has a Jack? You haven't made your hand yet and now all of the sudden it's 3 way action. As played, you should've simply called here. You're getting a 16:1 to call on a hand with 4:1 odds of improving and you still haven't made a good hand yet.

Then the River.... it flips over you 2 pair. What has you still beat here? KQ and Q8 which I put the SBs on one of the two (likely KQ), JT, J6, 9x, TT, JJ, 66. You're call makes since considering the pot size and how much you could be beat by.

4. There's a time to be aggressive and a time to play semi-passive. You played way too aggressive on every street but the flop and river.

A secret to winning microstakes limit (or even NL/PL) is know when to and not to raise. You're not gonna make someone fold because you simply raised, you only make those with lesser pot odds who have yet to call play poorly in a smaller pot and correctely in a larger pot. Most microlimit players, even on FT, make those mistakes, much like you did here. Controlling the pot is vital as winners will typically win lots of small pots + a few big pots by controlling the pot odds against thier opponents. I wouldn't be surprised if you lost the hand to the SB.
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Coolidge
Old 05-29-2007, 08:30 PM     Post subject: Re: Microstakes flopped OESFD was jamming the turn wrong? #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overflow
Full Tilt 0.25/0.5 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, 8.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 9, 6, J (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) T (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, MP1 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (29.50 BB) 9 (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 32.50 BB
I just limp prelop, I don't raise the flop facing everyone with 2 bets. I just call the turn too. I guess the pot is gigantic, but no way MP can't beat TT99J.
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