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Maximizing profit w/ Quads
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euphoricism
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01-30-2006, 03:22 PM
Post subject: Maximizing profit w/ Quads
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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I figure I've got the absolute nuts - giving free cards doesn't hurt me, so I wanted to give the guy every opportunity to draw to a second best hand. What do you think about the turn play?
Villain is your standard 40/20 (over a rediculously small sample size, I think 20 hands or so)
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8 , 8 .
Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.
Flop: (4.50 SB) 8 , K , T (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.
Turn: (4.25 BB) 8 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.
River: (6.25 BB) J (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB folds.
Final Pot: 9.25 BB
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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As a rule, I don't like to slowplay the big streets unless my opponent routinely folds to any aggression. At worst, you lose one bet by raising the turn, but you will often make the same if he has any reasonable draw on the turn. By not raising the turn, you lose the chance to cap the turn, and there are a number of rivers (9, T, J, Q, K, A) that might kill your action.
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Poker is freedom
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by koolmoe
...there are a number of rivers (9, T, J, Q, K, A) that might kill your action.
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Unless of course these are some of the cards that the opp was drawing for
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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I guess we can do some math figured:
A) He bet/calls turn then check/calls river (which would be my maximum profit, probably - I make 3BB
B) He bet/folds the turn - I make 1bb
C) He bet/calls the turn, check/folds river - I make 2bb.
D) He bets the turn, bet/calls the river - I make 3bb.
E) He bets the turn, bet/folds the river - I make 2bb.
F) He bets the turn, check folds the river - I make 1bb.
I was obviously hoping for D, maybe even hoping to get threebet if he completes his straight.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by outphase
Quote:
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Originally Posted by koolmoe
...there are a number of rivers (9, T, J, Q, K, A) that might kill your action.
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Unless of course these are some of the cards that the opp was drawing for
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Of course, but the percentage of those cards that are bad will typically be greater than the percentage of those that are good. And he'll call a turn raise with most hands that those cards help.
Hands that are most likely to fold to a turn raise - small pairs, 2PNK, stone cold bluffs.
QJ, AQ, AJ, will often call the turn raise, especially if you bluff occasionally when the board pairs, but they will fold many rivers, mostly check folding. AT might call a turn raise. AA, KT will call, maybe reraise. KK or TT will reraise. QQ, JJ might call a turn raise.
Why worry about one extra bet when he's bluffing when you are missing 3 or more bets when he has a big hand?
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Poker is freedom
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
I was obviously hoping for D, maybe even hoping to get threebet if he completes his straight.
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But if he is drawing for the straight, he'll sometimes call your turn raise, and then either donk you or check raise you on the river, allowing you to raise or three bet.
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Poker is freedom
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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Exactly, raising the turn gives him the chance to 3-bet the turn, and to get even more bets in on the river.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Look, I gotta take a page right out of SSH on this one:
Page 129, Bottom of page under the Heading "Final thoughts"
..."In this section we spent very little time analyzing big hands, like two pair, sets, full houses, and quads. Many players seem preoccupied with learning to "get the maximum" from these hands. In fact, playing big hands well is an overrated skill. These hands occur rarely, and when they do it is difficult to play them poorly.
They go on to suggest that instead, learning to play marginally strong hands, such as top pair good kicker, or even weak pairs when the board de-values your hand well is much more profitable in the long run, because you see these situations 30 or 40 times a night, instead of just one or two.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Look, I gotta take a page right out of SSH on this one:
Page 129, Bottom of page under the Heading "Final thoughts"
..."In this section we spent very little time analyzing big hands, like two pair, sets, full houses, and quads. Many players seem preoccupied with learning to "get the maximum" from these hands. In fact, playing big hands well is an overrated skill. These hands occur rarely, and when they do it is difficult to play them poorly.
They go on to suggest that instead, learning to play marginally strong hands, such as top pair good kicker, or even weak pairs when the board de-values your hand well is much more profitable in the long run, because you see these situations 30 or 40 times a night, instead of just one or two.
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I agree 100x. You get quads maybe once every 3,000 hands? We're talking about 1 bet differences on a hand that happens that often?
Not that you shouldn't learn to play well in every situation, but I'm just saying it's not very important.
I would have to agree with the turn raise. He may fold, but at most you've lost 1 bet compared with what you did here. If you raise, there's a lot of hands he could have that will pay you off. Calling the turn bet is not a horrible move though, because of what has been said above.
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
..."In this section we spent very little time analyzing big hands, like two pair, sets, full houses, and quads. Many players seem preoccupied with learning to "get the maximum" from these hands. In fact, playing big hands well is an overrated skill. These hands occur rarely, and when they do it is difficult to play them poorly.
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I agree with a lot of what was written in SSHE, but if you consider the aggregate of big hands, they occur often enough. In an aggressive, shorthanded game with semiaware opponents, it's a bit of a leak to start soft playing big hands on the flop and turn because it erodes your folding equity.
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Poker is freedom
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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So you guys are saying that rather than posting about something that occurs fairly infrequently, but points out an enlightening and fairly important topic (maximizing profit when shown aggression and you hold the absolute nuts), I should post more "marginally strong hands, such as top pair good kicker, "?
Umm. Do I need to tell you thats rediculous? I mean, I understand your point -- its good to learn how to play marginal hands. But its entirely irrelevant here. To say, "dont worry about it" is negating an important idea of poker -- learn how to maximize your profit at all times
Thanks to those that contributed.
I don't actually remember any particular reads about the hand - Ive had quads twice in the last 5k hands and this was one of them that I saw on the "misc" tab.
Now, please, post another tpwk hand so we can tell you to raise the flop, check behind on the turn, and auto call the river ;]
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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lol.
If I insulted you, that wasn't intended. I'm sorry.
Plainly and simply put, betting out on every street is great play with quads.
If you check and you KNOW the guy on your left is going to bet, then you chould check and raise, which is great play with quads.
No point to defend the hand unless you have 3 suited connected cards by the river... and by then. it's too late, if you flopped quads and watched runner runner hit.
Simply put, maximizing your profit is case by case and easily readable/doable, when you have Quads.
2x in 5k hands? you'd have been able to get 120BBmax out of a full table.... if the entire table capped on every betting situation. That's 240BB you could have collected. Reasonably with Quads, you'll be LUCKY to collect 30 BB. in 5k hands, 30 BB is nothing. It's a nickel in the bucket. Maximizing towards 240BB is ridiculous.
Maybe I do sound ridiculous suggesting that you shouldn't worry about it. But I'm not suggesting 'soft play only' I'm just saying that if you gave a total donk, or fish this hand in this situation, they'd be hard pressed to make the wrong decision. Which means you should make the right decision 99% of the time.
Just my 2 cents.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Koolmoe made a very good point. You should usually play your monsters hard. Of course, you should make the correct play post flop to get the most out of it. But if you play your strong hands hard, you gain fold equity with your weaker hands. And fold equity is very very important.
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