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socal1111
Old 07-03-2008, 04:51 AM     Post subject: Max/Min Situation #1 (permalink)  
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Late night live $20/40 game, down to 4-handed.

I've only played w/ villain 9-handed, so not really sure of his tendencies short. He's good player, probably small winner.

I open CO Ac6c, BB calls.

FLOP
10,6,2 r

BB leads, I raise, call.

I think this is easy raise. Could be probing w/ all types of hands-- doesn't have to have 10, and actually expect C/R w/ 10. If he 3-bets, I'm probably in trouble, but can bail UI turn. I put 75% he'd 3-bet 77-99, and 95% 10's+ pre-flop.

TURN
(10,6,2) 5
He leads again.

I hate call-down mode short, allowing him to value thin against me. Can I find a fold before SD, UI? Can I raise for free SD? (obviously mucking to 3-bet). If I call turn, can I find a value bet if he checks safe river?

My bigger problem-- I don't have a feel how light he'd call down vs. his value betting range. Also, his view of me can't be too accurate shorthanded either, so finding a "correct line" is xtremely difficult.

Thoughts?
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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asdpikas
Old 07-03-2008, 09:00 AM #2 (permalink)  
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i would just call down, wouldnt raise turn, ur WA/WB, so just hope you're best
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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DrivingDog
Old 07-03-2008, 10:06 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Your read on the flop is that he most likely has 6x so you raise.

He donks the turn again. He may think you were raising the flop with overcards or he may have improved. But really the only hands that improved were 65, 55. Does he call a CO open with 65? Unlikely. Maybe 65s, but there's a lot more 6x hands than 65s or 55 hands, so I think we're good here.

I probably raise the turn and fold to a 3bet. If he just calls, I bet again on the river unless he donks again and we're UI, in which case I have to stop and think (and probably fold, yuck).
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Chopper
Old 07-03-2008, 09:44 PM #4 (permalink)  
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i find players very bluffy HU. therefore, i find the "call down short" mode very profitable and really minimizes risk.

however, since you raised flop and he donked the turn, i have to give him credit for more than the 6. therefore, i certainly dont raise the turn on him. to me, thats spewy. it costs the same to call to showdown (2bbs) and gives me one more shot at a crappy suckout. if villain is also betting naked A or overcards, i cash in on an apparent blank river when i call, and i can even raise for value if i catch the A. if a single paint hits river, i may be able to scare him off with a raise if he thinks i can drag overcards to showdowns.

in short though, i think your 6 is WA/WB, too. call down is probably best, and if you spike a good card (A or any paint depending), you may have good value in a raise when he donks into you.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 07-04-2008, 02:10 AM #5 (permalink)  
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He may also check river sometimes, depending on what comes, u can bet or see the showdown for only one bigbet "sometimes"
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socal1111
Old 07-04-2008, 03:00 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Here's where I want to take my limit game to another level, and do it consistently. I don't want to focus on "minimizing losses" if I think I can maximize my wins.

My feeling on the flop was that I was ahead, and he was probing w/ a worse six, hoping I was on overs. I can't "just call down to minimize" if I believe he's donking for info... that's when I feel he needs to pay the max. When he donks again on the turn, it still smelled weak, because I WOULD raise w/ overs on the flop, hoping for free turn. If I raise turn, and get 3-bet, there would be no doubt I was beat, and could make an easy laydown... still losing the same. If I was right in my read, I would win xtra bet when he checked river. If he lead river again, I'd find a fold.

If he called turn, and checked river... I'd love to find a thin value bet (depending on what hit). Finding those xtra bets in these marginal situations can separate great from good.

Thoughts?
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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asdpikas
Old 07-04-2008, 04:00 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
If he lead river again, I'd find a fold.
Thoughts?
can you really? with those odds? the pot would be givin you somethin like 10-1... automatic call on river based on odds
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asdpikas
Old 07-04-2008, 04:04 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
Here's where I want to take my limit game to another level, and do it consistently. I don't want to focus on "minimizing losses" if I think I can maximize my wins.
Thoughts?
A dollar saved is the same as a dollar won. You HAVE to do both things, minimizin losses and maximizin wins, to be profitable. One isn't more important than the other, they are equal.
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asdpikas
Old 07-04-2008, 04:06 AM #9 (permalink)  
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if he 3-bets the turn can u fold? getting 9 or 10 - 1 and with 6 outs? Not mentioning you may actually be ahead....
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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socal1111
Old 07-04-2008, 04:22 AM #10 (permalink)  
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socal1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
If he lead river again, I'd find a fold.
Thoughts?
can you really? with those odds? the pot would be givin you somethin like 10-1... automatic call on river based on odds
That would be very, very tough... such a sick, puke call, as I grab my ass cheeks. Getting that big of price, gross fold, probably.

About the turn, if he 3-bet, I'm toast. If he outplayed me, so be it, but a bluff 3-bet would be very difficult to fire. What's he doing it with, based on what he thinks I'm raising with?
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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Chopper
Old 07-04-2008, 04:50 AM #11 (permalink)  
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simple concept, i know. but, dont you think by calling down, you ARE maximizing your wins? if he's an aggro player, that bluffs HU pots, you are really opening up his range to spew...and you collect that as a win.

if you raise for value, its agreeably very thin, do you gain much when he shuts down? seems that aggression minimizes wins and exposes you to the 3bet you have to fold to. however, the call on the river brings in SO much more crap and costs you nothing more than the raise you had to fold off.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 07-04-2008, 04:55 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
simple concept, i know. but, dont you think by calling down, you ARE maximizing your wins? if he's an aggro player, that bluffs HU pots, you are really opening up his range to spew...and you collect that as a win.

if you raise for value, its agreeably very thin, do you gain much when he shuts down? seems that aggression minimizes wins and exposes you to the 3bet you have to fold to. however, the call on the river brings in SO much more crap and costs you nothing more than the raise you had to fold off.
well spoken
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asdpikas
Old 07-04-2008, 04:59 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
About the turn, if he 3-bet, I'm toast. If he outplayed me, so be it, but a bluff 3-bet would be very difficult to fire. What's he doing it with, based on what he thinks I'm raising with?
You're getting about the right odds to draw to your outs, again math would say grab your ass cheeks and call.
When the math will make you call anyway, and put you in these situations, i just like to keep it simple, calling down seems so much easier/better....
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socal1111
Old 07-04-2008, 05:44 AM #14 (permalink)  
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socal1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
simple concept, i know. but, dont you think by calling down, you ARE maximizing your wins? if he's an aggro player, that bluffs HU pots, you are really opening up his range to spew...and you collect that as a win.

if you raise for value, its agreeably very thin, do you gain much when he shuts down? seems that aggression minimizes wins and exposes you to the 3bet you have to fold to. however, the call on the river brings in SO much more crap and costs you nothing more than the raise you had to fold off.
Agree that if he's aggro., and spewing, I'll earn more by simply allowing him to fire away. But, I don't know that he's aggro., not playing short w/ him b4. If he has weak 6, 55-, or some funky draw, raising turn won't shut him down, but WILL gain one more bet when he misses, or chooses he can't call river.

Actually, shutting him down, or charging him to draw to overs wouldn't be a bad thing for me. If he's getting jiggy w/ KJ, KQ, QJ, etc., he may muck to turn raise, which would be huge for my hand. If I had Kx on K-high board, calling down would be more obvious imo, only fearing one overcard.

Yes, getting 3-bet on turn would suck, and would maximize my loss, but these turn raises can be very profitable if (and if being key) he's going to river.
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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Chopper
Old 07-04-2008, 03:03 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
Agree that if he's aggro., and spewing, I'll earn more by simply allowing him to fire away. But, I don't know that he's aggro., not playing short w/ him b4. If he has weak 6, 55-, or some funky draw, raising turn won't shut him down, but WILL gain one more bet when he misses, or chooses he can't call river.
shouldnt you have some sort of clue from playing with him FR? certainly you should know how he plays HU, right? w/o reads, i assume that HU they are bluffy. and, multiway, they are stations. then, i go from there based on what i find when the cards flip over...and try to adjust very quickly. (but that may be because its what i see at microstakes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
Actually, shutting him down, or charging him to draw to overs wouldn't be a bad thing for me. If he's getting jiggy w/ KJ, KQ, QJ, etc., he may muck to turn raise, which would be huge for my hand. If I had Kx on K-high board, calling down would be more obvious imo, only fearing one overcard.

Yes, getting 3-bet on turn would suck, and would maximize my loss, but these turn raises can be very profitable if (and if being key) he's going to river.
i think you most likely know more than i do. (well, i dont think...i know) i just wanted to provide a dissenting opinion to see if you would look at it another way...and come to a conclusion that they are really both about the same.

i suck at the minute math calculations that limit requires while reviewing your game. i still play in games where, if its this close, just try to max your take because there are much larger edges to be had. and, here it would be allowing them to bluff most of the time...because they will as a default play...in HU pots.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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socal1111
Old 07-04-2008, 04:24 PM #16 (permalink)  
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socal1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
Agree that if he's aggro., and spewing, I'll earn more by simply allowing him to fire away. But, I don't know that he's aggro., not playing short w/ him b4. If he has weak 6, 55-, or some funky draw, raising turn won't shut him down, but WILL gain one more bet when he misses, or chooses he can't call river.
shouldnt you have some sort of clue from playing with him FR? certainly you should know how he plays HU, right? w/o reads, i assume that HU they are bluffy. and, multiway, they are stations. then, i go from there based on what i find when the cards flip over...and try to adjust very quickly. (but that may be because its what i see at microstakes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
Actually, shutting him down, or charging him to draw to overs wouldn't be a bad thing for me. If he's getting jiggy w/ KJ, KQ, QJ, etc., he may muck to turn raise, which would be huge for my hand. If I had Kx on K-high board, calling down would be more obvious imo, only fearing one overcard.

Yes, getting 3-bet on turn would suck, and would maximize my loss, but these turn raises can be very profitable if (and if being key) he's going to river.
i think you most likely know more than i do. (well, i dont think...i know) i just wanted to provide a dissenting opinion to see if you would look at it another way...and come to a conclusion that they are really both about the same.

i suck at the minute math calculations that limit requires while reviewing your game. i still play in games where, if its this close, just try to max your take because there are much larger edges to be had. and, here it would be allowing them to bluff most of the time...because they will as a default play...in HU pots.
I like your advice a lot, and appreciate helping. You're right, that HU does get more spewy for obvious reasons, but multiway can be too, trying to knock players out, cleaning outs, and overall just maxing chances of winning pot.

RESULTS:
Turn... he lead, I raised (for free showdown, and shut-out overs). He called.

RIver... Ace hit, he lead again, and called my raise!

He flashed an Ace before mucking. Played that really strange, but I guess he was trying to get me off little pair, or overs. Doesn't happen too often, where opponent's line is... lead/call, lead/call, lead/call.

Thx for your help.
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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Chopper
Old 07-04-2008, 09:11 PM #17 (permalink)  
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he had a kicker he knew he should have raised pre. and, you hit your smaller kicker on the flop and he chased his overs down and hit the A...coolering himself in the process.

now that i know he isnt folding overs, i blast him fairly thinly, and dont get cautious until he raises me back.

sounds like a station, to me. and, i treat him the same in FR games, too (in HU pots), until i see a couple showdowns, against me, telling me he has adjusted.

no probs. glad to see i wasnt a fish in regards to my thoughts...in this thread...lol.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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