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elipsesjeff

06-05-2005, 10:23 PM Post subject: Marginal situations.

#1 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8

, 7

.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, SB folds.

Flop: (9 SB) J

, K

, 6

(4 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, MP folds, CO calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 8c 7c (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.50 BB.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q

, K

.
2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8

, K

, T

(3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 5

(3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (13.50 BB) K

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

Results in white below:
BB has As Ad (two pair, aces and kings).
Hero has Qd Ks (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 15.50 BB.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, K

.
3 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, SB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 7

, 2

, T

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 8

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6 BB) 7

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has As Kc (one pair, sevens).
SB has 5c Ah (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 8 BB.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7

, 8

.
UTG raises, Hero calls, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) J

, 7

, 6

(3 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 2

(3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (8.25 BB) 9

(3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 7c 8c (one pair, sevens).
CO has Ac Qc (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.25 BB.

I'm still working on things

. I forgot how much I missed GT+ and PokerTracker too. Found a few 77 VPIPers that I just isolated and beat teh crap out of. Like this guy for example:

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

, K

.
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2

, 6

, 4

(2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) K

(2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls $33 (All-In), Hero calls.

River: (13.55 BB) 7

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: 13.55 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 7s Ah (one pair, sevens).
Hero has Kh Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.55 BB.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4

40 BB day!! woot. Also, datamining starts again, now.

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ArcticKnight

06-05-2005, 11:03 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

How I'd play them (not saying that I'm right)

Hand 1 - I'd call from BB, not raise
Hand 2 - I would not have capped
Hand 3 - I'd fold the turn (but it' read dependent - I tend to respect the CR followed by a lead bet next street, which he did)
Hand 4 - I'd fold pre-flop (87s too weak for a MP cold call)

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

elipsesjeff

06-06-2005, 04:37 AM

#3 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

Hand 1 - I'd call from BB, not raise

This is directly out my Full ring Loopy play book. With four others in the pot I'm raising with this to build the pot.

Quote:

Hand 2 - I would not have capped

I really didnt put him on Aces at all, let alone TPTK. I actually thought he was on straight/flush draw. I rivered.

Quote:

Hand 3 - I'd fold the turn (but it' read dependent - I tend to respect the CR followed by a lead bet next street, which he did)

This guy was trying to pull moves like this all the time. This wasnt the first time I caught him red handed. More than twice he's tried to blind steal and I've called him down with Ace high both times, both times he check/folded the river. Too aggressive for his own good. I knew from the flop onwards I'm not folding, nor do I alot when I have AK heads up against most tricky players. Its the check raise on the turn that usually worries me, not the flop. Give me one good reason why any thinking player would check raise on the flop in a HU situation unless you were trying to steal?

Quote:

Hand 4 - I'd fold pre-flop (87s too weak for a MP cold call)

I'm aware, but this is the same guy as in hand 3 raising and I knew I had gotten under his skin. Also, with the raisor behind me I assumed these guys were sharing outs. And with all that preflop action I knew that J didn't help either of them and once the turn checked through I knew I was money. Preflop I've been seeing this alot and you tend to get paid off when you actually do it. I'm not doing it everytime but against a couple agressive opponents who usually raise/auto bet the flop with two overs it can be a nice payday. This is done a lot in 15/30 full.

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More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

Fnord

06-06-2005, 04:44 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

Hand 1 - I'd call from BB, not raise

This is directly out my Full ring Loopy play book. With four others in the pot I'm raising with this to build the pot.

You're costing yourself money unless the pot is like 6+ way, and even then I'd rather just play a flop without showing pre-flop strength or getting the table GAMB00L crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

Hand 2 - I would not have capped

I really didnt put him on Aces at all, let alone TPTK. I actually thought he was on straight/flush draw. I rivered.

If you think he's on a draw, nail him on a blank turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

Hand 3 - I'd fold the turn (but it' read dependent - I tend to respect the CR followed by a lead bet next street, which he did)

This guy was trying to pull moves like this all the time, blah blah blah

Well played. Poker is a game of people, position and cards; not just cards. You gotta show down a few weak hands against guys like this to slow them down otherwise they will rob you blind at a 6 max table.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

Hand 4 - I'd fold pre-flop (87s too weak for a MP cold call)

I'm aware, but blah blah blah. This is done a lot in 15/30 full.

I still think it's a bad play. Is this the "float" play I keep hearing about? Suited connectors without agression behind them do very badly in an aggressive game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

06-06-2005, 05:22 AM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

You're costing yourself money unless the pot is like 6+ way, and even then I'd rather just play a flop without showing pre-flop strength or getting the table GAMB00L crazy.

Given that you fold to any aggressive behavior to you I see no conflict in putting more chips in the pot. You are able to represent whatever hand actually does appear on the flop and when the board hits your hand the random Ax will call you down because they will think you are bluffing. I dont mind getting the table GAMBOOL crazy as long as I have a hand with implied odds of 78s. I'm less likely to raise AA here (as per HEPFAP) than 78s.

Quote:

If you think he's on a draw, nail him on a blank turn.

It wasnt a blank though, if he hit his flush then I'm only going to get three bet here, given his flop agression I'm thinking I'm behind at this point, I just don't know how far behind.

Quote:

I still think it's a bad play. Is this the "float" play I keep hearing about? Suited connectors without agression behind them do very badly in an aggressive game.

Is that what 'they' are calling it? a Float play? All I know is i've been killed so many times against players cold calling from MP with 67s and the like, I'm also more likely to pay them off with TPTK.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with K

, Q

.
1 fold, Hero raises, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 6

, 7

, Q

(2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Qh (two pair, queens and sixes).
Button has 6c 7c (full house, sixes full of sevens).
Outcome: Button wins 10.75 BB.

Dont tell me it didn't happen to you on your trip to 15/30, because I'm willing to bet it or something close to it did. I know it happened to me too and I sure wasnt expecting it when I got there and TAG poker doesnt work against these guys, you said it yourself. And if you arent dominated then 78s has almost as much a chance to win as QJs when up against random AK and more of a chance to win as KQs. (I dont know the exact numbers on them but its close). And if you can outplay your opponent and with your reads on him (playerview and PT a must here) you can safely get out with any unsafe cards.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

Fnord

06-06-2005, 05:42 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

You're costing yourself money unless the pot is like 6+ way, and even then I'd rather just play a flop without showing pre-flop strength or getting the table GAMB00L crazy.

Implied odds hands go down in value with every bet you need to put in pre-flop. However, if we're multi-way enough 87s is an effective odds hand. As a general rule, I avoid spraying chips into 3+ opponents who love to call + raise in hopes that they fold.

Where in HEPFAP does it suggest not raising AA pre-flop if the pot looks to be 3+ way? Not pushing that big of an edge is silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Room

06-06-2005, 11:59 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 197

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

I still think it's a bad play. Is this the "float" play I keep hearing about? Suited connectors without agression behind them do very badly in an aggressive game.

My understanding of what the 2+2 is defining as a float is when you cold call a raise NOW to outplay/show strength on a later street (typically via a semibluff rather than pure bluff). This is more of a situational and read dependant play than anything else.

I think someone on 2+2 did an half serious, half joking post about the difference between terminology (ie. gaybet vs donkbet). My understanding is:

Cold-Call - When bad players call 2 bets.
Float - When good players call 2 bets as a strategy for the later street.

elipsesjeff

06-06-2005, 12:37 PM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Where in HEPFAP does it suggest not raising AA pre-flop if the pot looks to be 3+ way? Not pushing that big of an edge is silly.

Not AA, but AK, sorry. Page 40. Also, an argument for my 87s blind raise can be made from page 41 last paragraph.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

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